Ich eradication vs. Ich management

[Uncledazza]

oversize UV.

Im running Zeovit system, they dont recommend UV...?

 

[Jamezanity]

Hello everyone. I just wanna let you guys know i’m doing a ich management on my achilles tang right now i bought him healthy and his been qt on my lfs for 2 months. Once i introduce it to my tank first day doing good and eating and 2nd day he got white spot and i know its ich but still eating like a boss right now its been a week and still the same still have some white spot and still eating like pig. I’m hoping the white spot will go away. Btw i have other fish on my tank and they have ich before and managed the ich. My achilles is 6” and my tank is 150g. I know 150g is not big enough on my achilles but some reefer have success keeping achilles on 150g. I will update you guys how it goes on my achilles.

 

[Terri Caton]

I’m doing Ich management on a tank right now. A very neglected tank I bought. Too many fish to QT. Plus I’d never catch them all without breaking down the whole rockscape/corals. Concentrating on the immune system of the fish.

However, I have decided to run a small pool filter for 6 weeks. At least for the first go round. The filter is small enough to trap the Ich in the free swimming state. It will be a hassle since I will have to replenish the pod/bacteria population often during this time but I’m going to give it a try. Maybe I can figure out a rotating schedule to use it that won’t make the tank too clean but keep the Ich population down.

 

[Terri Caton]

Nice write up and I agree with most of it. While I do not have to quarantine, the majority of people will have to, especially Noobs as I know many of them will not be able to keep their fish in such shape to always be immune to ich. Your pros and cons is also right on. You did leave out one "con" to quarantining but I don't want to screw up your thread with my controversial theories. I am writing a book and one of the chapters is on this. You may find this interesting as it goes along with this thread. Keep up the good work.

Fish Health Through Slime

Guess if you dated a girl who looked like a flounder I can see why you think about super models so much

Great article and I agree with building up immunity 100%.

Question, can you go into more detail about the best foods, vitamins, etc you have found to build up the slime coat? I feed heavily, wide variety of frozen/dried foods, use Selcon and feed 4-5 x daily. And lots of seaweed. In fact so much seaweed I’ve discovered I can’t even eat it anymore. No more seaweed salad, sushi...

Thanks

I’m having a hard time understanding all of this argument about immune systems in this thread. Not that I don’t understand it, being in medicine I do, but why is this an argument at all? Literally almost everyone knows that if you get an illness and survive it you are immune. However, illness will always attack the weakest. Why? Because they know their best chance of infecting, thus propagating, is best in weaker hosts. And we also know that humans with the strongest immune systems get sick less.
Also, everyone knows that once you get sick you are most likely to get another sickness. Why? Because your immune system is weakened.


It is actually not in the best interest of the disease to kill the host. That host will go on to infect many others ensuring the disease survives. In fact, that’s the reason we are still around. Things like Ebola actually kill us off too quickly.

Now, another thing we all know is that if you are on an airplane with sick people you are more likely to get sick. This is because you are in an enclosed system with prolonged exposure. You are probably dehydrated. You probably haven’t eaten well. You’re probably stressed. Sound familiar?

And, the fish in my fairly new Ich management tank who gets it the most? The Powder Brown Tang. I’m not going to get into the Tang variety argument. Just saying. However, with the effort I put into building up their immune systems so far he is still swimming like an Olympian and eating like a State Champion contest winner.

 

[Paul B]

Guess if you dated a girl who looked like a flounder I can see why you think about super models so much

Terri, she was a very cute Flounder.

Question, can you go into more detail about the best foods, vitamins, etc you have found to build up the slime coat?

Yes I can. All fish will have a slime coat no matter what you feed them, but the slime coat has two purposes. One is that it is water soluble so it constantly sloughs off bringing most of the parasites with it.
The other purpose of the slime is to house the antibodies and anti/parasitic substances that will prevent so much of what is written about on these forums. The slime is exuded all over the place on a fish as are the antibodies. It takes a huge amount of calories and energy to constantly produce slime and antibodies as it is always renewed.

The proper food in the correct amounts are needed for this to happen. The most important function a fish has to take care of is immunity and that is where most of the calories go to. If the immune system is impaired, the other functions of the fish will wane. Growth and reproduction will stop if the immune system does not get the correct nutrition which is why many fish in a tank do not produce eggs. Normal fish produce eggs constantly, like "most" of us grow hair. A healthy female fish can't stop egg production.

That is also why I say a lot that "many" (not all) quarantined fish, especially medicated fish can not spawn. Their immune system is compromised and that has to work correctly for the fish to produce eggs. I don't want to re argue about that so if anyone does not agree send me a SASE and I will throw it away and steam off the stamp.

As to the food, fish do not need a varied diet. They need a diet like what they were eating in the sea and most fish have a simple diet. Predators eat other "whole" fish. Thats all they need.

Most other fish like clowns, anthius, Royal Gramma's etc. will eat anything they see and if it is moving, they will eat it faster but a large part of the diet of all fish is live, whole baby fish. All of their diet is "whole" animals with all the diseases in the sea.

So if you can give a fish an entire animal to eat, they need nothing else. No vitamins, minerals, or rogain.

I like to use clams because a clam is a wonder food for us and for fish. They are filter feeders and full of vitamins and minerals. When you chop up a clam you are also feeding the bacteria/viruses and parasites in it's gut.

Those three things are all a fish needs to stay immune and that fish will never get sick and will never have go on a disease thread.
My tank is not magical and has been running disease free longer than any parasite research that has been done anywhere so I am calling it a scientific study. You can call it luck, gibberish, nonsense or creamed spinach.

Of course if we could get living, tiny fish that would be the best, but that food is not available so we can use the next best thing. I even feed my hippo tang clams every day, no algae and he does not complain and is a perfect fish with not a scale out of place and was never quarantined, observed, cuddled, medicated or read to.

To have immune fish they need to occasionally eat foods containing the diseases we are trying to get them immune to.

You don't have to feed that every day, but it is better if you do.

Now, another thing we all know is that if you are on an airplane with sick people you are more likely to get sick. This is because you are in an enclosed system with prolonged exposure. You are probably dehydrated. You probably haven’t eaten well. You’re probably stressed. Sound familiar?

This is true, but the pilots and hostesses/stewardesses are not constantly sick because they are exposed to it daily. Just like I mentioned, the subway rails in New York City's 130 year old subway system.

No one cleans those handrails and 2,000,000 people ride that system from all over the world every day along with a whole lot of degenerates, yet we don't all get sick. In the 40 years I rode that subway I don't remember ever taking off a day due to sickness. Broken bones, torn ligaments, surgeries, dates with Supermodels, yes, but sickness, almost never.

I realize most people don't believe me but I feel it is common sense "to me" that extended quarantine, in a semi bare tank especially with medication is what actually causes fish disease and not the other way around. Fish in the sea are perfectly fine and are perfectly suited to take care of any diseases they may encounter in transit, just as if they took the subway.
But I am to old to argue about "again".

Clams are also very cheap (here in NY) I also feed LRS food every day but I like the living bacteria I get in the clams I try to buy live. I also use live whiteworms which I raise for practically free.

I don't remember where I took this but all those "dots" are fry. Fish feast on them all day and they are all over every reef. That entire school could be from just one Mother fish and they all spawn all the time.

 

[Terri Caton]

Terri, she was a very cute Flounder.



Yes I can. All fish will have a slime coat no matter what you feed them, but the slime coat has two purposes. One is that it is water soluble so it constantly sloughs off bringing most of the parasites with it.
The other purpose of the slime is to house the antibodies and anti/parasitic substances that will prevent so much of what is written about on these forums. The slime is exuded all over the place on a fish as are the antibodies. It takes a huge amount of calories and energy to constantly produce slime and antibodies as it is always renewed.

The proper food in the correct amounts are needed for this to happen. The most important function a fish has to take care of is immunity and that is where most of the calories go to. If the immune system is impaired, the other functions of the fish will wane. Growth and reproduction will stop if the immune system does not get the correct nutrition which is why many fish in a tank do not produce eggs. Normal fish produce eggs constantly, like "most" of us grow hair. A healthy female fish can't stop egg production.

That is also why I say a lot that "many" (not all) quarantined fish, especially medicated fish can not spawn. Their immune system is compromised and that has to work correctly for the fish to produce eggs. I don't want to re argue about that so if anyone does not agree send me a SASE and I will throw it away and steam off the stamp.

As to the food, fish do not need a varied diet. They need a diet like what they were eating in the sea and most fish have a simple diet. Predators eat other "whole" fish. Thats all they need.

Most other fish like clowns, anthius, Royal Gramma's etc. will eat anything they see and if it is moving, they will eat it faster but a large part of the diet of all fish is live, whole baby fish. All of their diet is "whole" animals with all the diseases in the sea.

So if you can give a fish an entire animal to eat, they need nothing else. No vitamins, minerals, or rogain.

I like to use clams because a clam is a wonder food for us and for fish. They are filter feeders and full of vitamins and minerals. When you chop up a clam you are also feeding the bacteria/viruses and parasites in it's gut.

Those three things are all a fish needs to stay immune and that fish will never get sick and will never have go on a disease thread.
My tank is not magical and has been running disease free longer than any parasite research that has been done anywhere so I am calling it a scientific study. You can call it luck, gibberish, nonsense or creamed spinach.

Of course if we could get living, tiny fish that would be the best, but that food is not available so we can use the next best thing. I even feed my hippo tang clams every day, no algae and he does not complain and is a perfect fish with not a scale out of place and was never quarantined, observed, cuddled, medicated or read to.

To have immune fish they need to occasionally eat foods containing the diseases we are trying to get them immune to.

You don't have to feed that every day, but it is better if you do.



This is true, but the pilots and hostesses/stewardesses are not constantly sick because they are exposed to it daily. Just like I mentioned, the subway rails in New York City's 130 year old subway system.

No one cleans those handrails and 2,000,000 people ride that system from all over the world every day along with a whole lot of degenerates, yet we don't all get sick. In the 40 years I rode that subway I don't remember ever taking off a day due to sickness. Broken bones, torn ligaments, surgeries, dates with Supermodels, yes, but sickness, almost never.

I realize most people don't believe me but I feel it is common sense "to me" that extended quarantine, in a semi bare tank especially with medication is what actually causes fish disease and not the other way around. Fish in the sea are perfectly fine and are perfectly suited to take care of any diseases they may encounter in transit, just as if they took the subway.
But I am to old to argue about "again".

Clams are also very cheap (here in NY) I also feed LRS food every day but I like the living bacteria I get in the clams I try to buy live. I also use live whiteworms which I raise for practically free.

I don't remember where I took this but all those "dots" are fry. Fish feast on them all day and they are all over every reef. That entire school could be from just one Mother fish and they all spawn all the time.

I completely agree with you. Exposure to pathogens is how we build up our immunity.
My point about the airplane was the prolonged exposure PLUS the other stressors = more likely to get sick.

So just clams? I already feed mine clams but since right now I live in the middle of nowhere Western CO I have to buy them when I can and freeze them. Will check out raising worms though.

Thanks

 

[Paul B]

Terri, I am afraid I don't know what, if any bacteria is alive in the clams from where you are. If you can get them fresh and freeze them yourself, thats great. I use "chowder" clams which are bigger than my fish and one lasts a couple of weeks. I am not sure you can get them. Maybe a fish market can order a dozen or so.

I also use whiteworms but of course they won't have the disease bacteria and parasites I want but I did read someplace that in fish, some bacteria and parasites they eat may produce an immunity to similar parasites, But I am guessing. I do know that when I started the hobby in 1971, I had 7 blue devils and I started to feed them live blackworms. In a few weeks those damsels spawned and kept spawning for their 7 year life span. After that I never had to quarantine again.

 

[reefofthenorth]

Sorry to reply to an old thread. If I quarantine all my fish, can I still maintain/add corals and inverts to my display tank while fallow?

 

[Paul B]

I don't think so because if you want a quarantined tank, you should also quarantine everything else. But that depends on what you are trying to eliminate by quarantining.

You could still get flatworms, bryopsis, nudibranchs etc. Parasites don't live on corals but they could be introduced with the water that the corals are living in.

 

[Humblefish]

Parasites don't live on corals but they could be introduced with the water that the corals are living in.

Unfortunately, not true old friend.

Parasite tomonts (different life stage than what feeds on fish) can encyst to almost any hard surface which doesn't have live tissue. The base of a SPS/LPS coral, snail or hermit crab shell, the exoskeleton of a crustacean, etc.

The table (below) was taken from Dr. Peter Burgess 1992 thesis, and lists materials that Cryptocaryon can attach to and form cysts/tomonts on:

 

[Paul B]

Unfortunately, not true old friend.

Thats what I meant Brother from a different Mother, but you put it so much more eloquently.
But the parasites won't multiply there.

OH NO, not the Burgess Chart ;Bucktooth I have been seeing that thing since he published it in 1992.
Him and Dr. Axelrod were always obsessed with it.

In 92, my tank was 21 years old and my fish were already immune so I used to take out that chart when I needed a laugh.

Axelrod and Burgess wrongly assumed that we should worry about those charts instead of thinking of how to improve the immunity of our fish, many of which never saw that chart especially the first part where it tells you how many trophants survive on a polished piece of glass.

Like, really!. Why would that concern anyone? Or that 28% of them survived on hemp.
Hemp, OMG, so if you smoke pot, you shouldn't put it in your tank because they will adhere to it for 48 hours and get high, after that, I assume they pack up and head to Bayonne New Jersey for wine and cheese.

How much time and research money did it take to come up with that?
Just feed your fish correctly, let them live in a normal, natural tank with no polished glass. Don't let them smoke pot and they will be fine.

This reminds me of a multi million dollar Government study as to why pizza burns your mouth. They determined that it was because "the cheese was hot." I remember that study and now, because of that, I wait until my pizza cools down a little before I bite it.

This parasite talk is ridiculous. Even the parasites don't care about it.
But I love you Bobby, charts, medications and all.

 

[Humblefish]

This parasite talk is ridiculous. Even the parasites don't care about it.
But I love you Bobby, charts, medications and all.

I love you too, but there's only one way we can finally resolve this QT debate...

 

[fishybizzness]

CAGE MATCH OF THE CENTURY!!!

 

[Paul B]

I love you too, but there's only one way we can finally resolve this QT debate...

Yes, and I guess I am the balder one.

 

[Humblefish]

Yes, and I guess I am the balder one.

Don't worry, he's the one all the ladies seem to like.

 

[MartinWaite]

Sorry to all you who qt every fish and coral etc but it doesn't seem to work very well. My mate who qt's everything before it goes anywhere near his DT and he's been very proud of his success and had never put anything other than food in his tank for well over 5 months in fact nearly 6 months and then one morning he gets up and a couple of fish have spots so thinking it's just sand or something and it will fall off. Anyway when the lights came on did he get a shock every fish was covered in white spots (ich) and he ended up catching all the fish and treating them with copper but in the end he lost every fish. And he's not the first I've heard about either.

Yet I don't believe in qt I think it's just more handling of the fish and it's even more stress for the fish and (touch wood) I've never had ich or anything like it in over 35 years of fish keeping, call it luck or whatever but I know which way I will continue.

 

[stevieduk]

i have always used Herbtana ,NEVER let me down in many years and does not affect inverts in the display tank, 7 days treatment when i fish has ich and its gone

 

[SebastianReefer]

This may go along with this thread. Over a week ago I aquired these two shrimpfish (yes, I know, very cool) In a couple of days, one became covered in spots, stopped eating and the next day he was dead. As always, I didn't quarantine them. If I did, I probably could have saved that shrimpfish. But the other one is still fine and I replaced the dead one. There is no sign of any spots on anything and i know there won't be as I have been doing this a long time and there has not been a spot on anything in probably 30 years, I don't remember. I don't want to elaborate to much but to me, an immune fish is much healthier than a segregated fish. Just my opinion of course. I also realize almost all Noobs should quarantine even if they think their fish are healthy. If their diet consists of flakes, pellets and brine shrimp, they are not healthy. If they are not spawning or making spawning jestures, they are not healthy. Not at all. "All' Healthy fish spawn "in the sea". Some won't spawn in a tank just because the conditions are not right for them, but they still should be in spawning condition. Some fish like clowns can eat cardboard and spawn, but most fish need better food and live food is the best with whole frozen foods next. I know what a lot of people are thinking. This guy doesn't know a fish from a Duck Billed Platypus. Of course some of my fish are older than those people but those people right now are thinking that they only feed "Premium" flakes and pellets because they are expensive. Good luck with that, and make shure to quarantine.

Love all your pictures and your creations beautiful tank

 

[iko2thdk]

Ich eradication vs. Ich management​

The purpose of this article is to discuss the pros & cons of ich eradication and ich management, and present the best methods for implementing each.

Ich eradication - Simply put, this method means doing everything possible to keep ich out of your tank. That can be accomplished by establishing & maintaining a strict quarantine (QT) protocol as outlined here: How to Quarantine. It is very important to QT each & every fish, including your very first one, if you wish to avoid ich.

Why practice ich eradication? Once introduced by an infected specimen, and so long as there are always fish to feed on, ich can survive in your tank almost indefinitely. The only way to get it out is to starve it out by going fallow (fishless) for 76 days. The parasites continuously attack (feed on) fish, which does damage and can even kill them. I personally chose ich eradication, because I got tired of “ich management” being a part of my aquarium husbandry. There’s enough to do in a reef aquarium on a daily basis without adding “battle fish parasites” to the list.

The cons of ich eradication are somewhat obvious. In addition to having to setup & maintain a QT, not being able to add your newly purchased fish directly to the display tank (DT) can be a major buzz kill. QT does zap some of the “thrill” out of the hobby.

What if I already have ich in my tank? There is no easy way of dealing with this. You have to catch all of your fish, and QT/treat using copper, Chloroquine phosphate, tank transfer method or hyposalinity. More detailed information on all the aforementioned treatment options can be found here: Treatment Options Index.

The DT itself must be left fallow (fishless) for 76 days to starve out any remaining parasites. Corals/inverts cannot host, so they can be left in the DT during the fallow period. You must be wary of cross contamination during the fallow period, avoiding anything wet (including hands) when going from QT to DT (or vice versa). Aerosol transmission is another concern, so it’s best to house your QT at least 10 feet away from the DT. More info on that here: Aerosol transmission.

Remember there is no “reef safe” ich treatment that actually works! Those may (or may not) help fish with their symptoms; but no tea tree oil from India or garlic extract or any other herbal/natural “medication” will completely eradicate ich from a tank. The day someone does finally develop an effective “reef safe” treatment, we are all going to hear about it, and the inventor will become a millionaire.

Ich management - This method involves just managing the presence of the disease, instead of eradicating it. You know you have ich in your tank or are willing to risk it by forgoing QT. Despite how strongly I advocate ich eradication these days, I employed ich management for almost 30 years. I found the key to success was keeping the overall number of parasites down, while simultaneously boosting the fishes’ immune systems to deal with the parasites that survived. Some ways to accomplish this include:

• Utilizing the biggest UV sterilizer you can fit/afford. While a UV will probably never “zap” all of the free swimmers (theronts), it will keep their numbers down so the fish can better cope with the ones remaining. A diatom filter can also be used to remove free swimmers.
• Boost your fishes’ immune systems through proper nutrition. This means feeding a wide range of live & frozen nutritious foods, not just flake & pellets. Feed nori, as that is loaded with vitamins. Also, soak fish food in vitamin supplements such as Selcon, Zoecon and Vita-Chem to further enhance health. Omega 3 & 6 fish oils are great (and cheap) soaking alternatives.
• Stay on top of your aquarium husbandry! Maintain pristine water conditions, stable parameters and avoid fish that are likely to fight. Poor water quality, fluctuating parameters and aggression from other fish may “stress” a fish out, lower his immune system and make him more susceptible to parasitic infestation.
• Choose your fish wisely. Avoid “ich magnets” i.e. fish with thin mucous coats such as tangs. Clownfish, anthias, wrasses and even mandarins are better choices as those have thick slime coats protecting their skin from attacking parasites. Also, only buy from reputable sources, and don’t buy fish that look diseased/damaged, won’t eat or who share water with diseased fish.
• No discussion of “ich management” can be had without mentioning garlic. This topic is often debated, and I honestly don’t know whether or not soaking garlic in fish food helps with ich. I have seen it work as an appetite stimulant, so that might help right there. However, I’m less confident in its ability to boost a fish’s immune system. Another theory is that garlic leaches back out of a fish’s pores, and that makes the fish an undesirable host for parasites. While there is no scientific evidence supporting anything beneficial, studies have been done linking long-term garlic use with liver damage in fish. Therefore, I use garlic sparingly.

A fine example of utilizing proper nutrition to keep the bugs away is Paul Baldassano’s (aka Paul B) over 40 year old, 100 gallon aquarium. Paul keeps his fish in “breeding condition” by feeding live foods (ex. blackworms) and soaking food in Omega-3 fish oil. Most of his livestock live to be a ripe old age and some of his fish spawn on a regular basis. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paul and highly recommend this article written by him: Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano?s Reef - 40 Years in the Making.

Pros & cons - One upside of practicing ich management is obvious: not having to QT. I get it; I really do. It’s exciting to make the rounds of the local fish shops, finding that “perfect fish” and then adding him to your DT. After all, having fun is what a hobby is supposed to be all about. What’s fun about adding a fish to a bare bottom QT with PVC elbows?

However, the downsides are numerous. All it takes is one “stressor event” to undo years of ich management. By stressor event, I mean something like a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, fish fighting, etc., anything that stresses a fish out and lowers his immune system. Sometimes ich capitalizes on these events by overwhelming a fish’s immune system, and fish start dying. Also, secondary bacterial infections are common in fish afflicted with ich, due to their already compromised immune system. All it takes is a cut or an open wound left by an ich trophont. These bacterial diseases sometimes prove to be far deadlier than ich itself, especially if caused by a gram negative bacterium.

Ich management is more of a “learn as you go” process, which is why experienced hobbyists often fare better than newbies. For me, ich management just got to be too stressful. The stress of seeing the spots, wondering if today was going to be the day it finally caught up with me, or if the fish that just died was a result of ich or something else. Losing too many fish under “mysterious” circumstances is what finally led me to choose ich eradication.

Sad to say, but current events are so similar to Ich. Stressed fish are more susceptible, like compromised adults being more at risk for Covid-19 affliction.
Dormant periods resemble the infectious state of Covid-19 with no symptoms but high risk of infection.
Social distancing, removing fish inhabitants from reef aquariums for treatment and our Dts to remain fallow for upto 11 weeks.
Finally, aerosol transmission...enough said.
Hope everyone is careful and stays well. Sadly, my flame angel in my DT has ICH and now I must do as has been so well explained by Humblefish and others.

 

[Paul B]

I hate to say this but I disagree with this. Fish in the sea are living constantly with all the same diseases and parasites that they are getting in a lot of tanks. The reason we are getting the Corona Virus is that it is a new disease that probably jumped from rats, bats or duck billed platypuses, I don't know so we have no immunity.

Bubonic Plague was another disease that jumped from rodents. (it was actually Gerbels and not rats, but also from China)
Anyway, the Plague was a new disease and we had no immunity from it just as Corona Virus is new to Humans and us.

Descendants of People who survived the Plague are now immune to Aids. (All Plague victims did not die from a bacteria as some forms of Plague deaths were viral. Their HMOs couldn't tell the difference)

Anyway, be it as it may, our fish in the sea are immune from ich, velvet and almost everything else, if they were not, that flounder I had for dinner last night would have died way before I ate him as fish eat parasites and diseases with every meal as most fish don't cook their food.

When this virus passes, many of us will have some immunity to it for a certain length of time but we are not normally encountering it on a daily basis which is why no one is immune except for maybe the people who recovered.

No one in the new world was immune from Small Pox which is why most of them died when Europeans came here. The Europeans didn't "all" die from it and they didn't look that clean and healthy to me. It took months to get here in a filthy ship filled with rats and rancid water and food. The only thing they had going for them on those sailing ships was that there was no RAP music.

But the Europeans had some immunity because everyone was exposed to it and after a lot of them died, the rest didn't.

My theory is that our fish need some exposure to all the diseases they encountered in the sea and if they have that, they will never get sick. I think my 50 year old tank kind of proves that to some extent.

You will find no older "Quarantined" tank and the reason for that is what I just said throughout this thread.
There are actually no old quarantined tanks. Think about that.

But while you are thinking, quarantine yourself and stay away from everyone for now.