Ich or velvet?

[EEE1986]

Hello,
I’ve had this pygmy yellowtail angel fish for 3 days now. The first two days they kept to themselves for the most part. On day one when I brought them back home I noticed they had some frayed fins and a small ulceration on their side that disappeared by the next day. On day 2 I noticed white spots on their fins which I thought could have been part of the normal coloration but I had some doubts after reviewing pictures of this species online. They started accepting food for the first time that evening. Today (day 3) I see they have more of a diffuse covering of tiny white spots on their body. They wete also flashing and stopping by my fire shrimp for grooming. Despite this, they still maintained normal energy level, appetite and seemed to be more confident swimming around the tank. With spreading of the white dots and the fish being wild caught I’m concerned for an ectoparasite such as ich or velvet. Am I being paranoid or do I have a problem here?

 

[Fish Fan]

Sorry you're experiencing this! Definitely looks like something going on. I'm betting Ich as Velvet tends to be very lethal, and can kill all your fish in a very short period of time, like 12-24 hours. That's almost a hallmark of Velvet, so to speak.

I don't like to make diagnoses, I leave that for the #fishmedic #fishmedics crew or those confident enough to make a diagnosis.

Following along; best of luck!

 

[Sharkbait19]

Velvet generally doesn’t show any spots. You will only see rapid breathing, swimming into flow, and acute death in most cases.
The spots are suspicious for ich. The best course of treatment would be copper in a qt tank (coppersafe or copper power at 2.25 ppm for 30 days) followed by a 60 day fallow (fishless period) of the dt to starve any remaining parasites.

 

[Fish Fan]

Velvet generally doesn’t show any spots. You will only see rapid breathing, swimming into flow, and acute death in most cases.

Thank you very much for your help and clarification here!

 

[EEE1986]

Velvet generally doesn’t show any spots. You will only see rapid breathing, swimming into flow, and acute death in most cases.
The spots are suspicious for ich. The best course of treatment would be copper in a qt tank (coppersafe or copper power at 2.25 ppm for 30 days) followed by a 60 day fallow (fishless period) of the dt to starve any remaining parasites.

But what do I do with my Clown Fish and watchman Goby in the DT? Are they doomed to come down with the same condition? From what I’ve read clown fish are less susceptible to ich due to their thick mucous coats. Is there anyway I can treat the DT? I don’t really have the capability of setting up a QT tank unfortunately

 

[Jay Hemdal]

But what do I do with my Clown Fish and watchman Goby in the DT? Are they doomed to come down with the same condition? From what I’ve read clown fish are less susceptible to ich due to their thick mucous coats. Is there anyway I can treat the DT? I don’t really have the capability of setting up a QT tank unfortunately

Yes, the angel has ich. but it also has ripped fins from tankmate aggression. All fish exposed to this one need to be treated, but if the other fish caused this aggression, it will only get worse in a treatment tank. There is a slight possibility that the shrimp caused the fin tears while the angel was posturing in front of it to be cleaned.

Without the capability of setting up a treatment tank, you are going to be really limited in what you can do to cure these fish.

You could try ich management:

"Ich Management"

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[EEE1986]

Yes, the angel has ich. but it also has ripped fins from tankmate aggression. All fish exposed to this one need to be treated, but if the other fish caused this aggression, it will only get worse in a treatment tank. There is a slight possibility that the shrimp caused the fin tears while the angel was posturing in front of it to be cleaned.

Without the capability of setting up a treatment tank, you are going to be really limited in what you can do to cure these fish.

You could try ich management:

"Ich Management"

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and...

www.reef2reef.com

The fish came from the fish store with the fin tears.

 

[Subsea]

The fish came from the fish store with the fin tears.

Not a good judgement call. How long have you used this LFS.

But what do I do with my Clown Fish and watchman Goby in the DT? Are they doomed to come down with the same condition? From what I’ve read clown fish are less susceptible to ich due to their thick mucous coats. Is there anyway I can treat the DT? I don’t really have the capability of setting up a QT tank unfortunately

Treat your display tank with copper. As long as you keep fish in this tank, it will have dormant ich.

 

[Revv65]

Velvet generally doesn’t show any spots. You will only see rapid breathing, swimming into flow, and acute death in most cases.
The spots are suspicious for ich. The best course of treatment would be copper in a qt tank (coppersafe or copper power at 2.25 ppm for 30 days) followed by a 60 day fallow (fishless period) of the dt to starve any remaining parasites.

Quick question. Won't copper harm the fire shrimp?

 

[Revv65]

Quick question. Won't copper harm the fire shrimp?

My mistake.....you mentioned in a QT.

 

[Revv65]

My mistake. I missed the QT.

Velvet generally doesn’t show any spots. You will only see rapid breathing, swimming into flow, and acute death in most cases.
The spots are suspicious for ich. The best course of treatment would be copper in a qt tank (coppersafe or copper power at 2.25 ppm for 30 days) followed by a 60 day fallow (fishless period) of the dt to starve any remaining parasites.

Part.

 

[Sharkbait19]

You could remove all invertebrates and do a hyposalinity treatment, but that would still require a separate tank.

 

[EEE1986]

You could remove all invertebrates and do a hyposalinity treatment, but that would still require a separate tank.

Thank you, I think this might be more achievable. There’s no way I’d be able to get that goby out without completely tearing up the habitat. I suppose this would allow me to administer medications that aren’t invertebrate safe as well.

 

[shookONES]

Ick isn’t a death sentence. I’d wager the majority of tanks have it to some capacity. Just keep everyone fat and healthy and let their natural immune systems work.

 

[Sharkbait19]

Ick isn’t a death sentence. I’d wager the majority of tanks have it to some capacity. Just keep everyone fat and healthy and let their natural immune systems work.

You can’t build an immunity to ich - it’s a parasitic infection that, in an aquarium with limited space, will always multiply to outbreak conditions.

Thank you, I think this might be more achievable. There’s no way I’d be able to get that goby out without completely tearing up the habitat. I suppose this would allow me to administer medications that aren’t invertebrate safe as well.

If you do hypo, I wouldn’t add any meds to the display tank. Rocks and sand absorb copper and leach it out at a later date (making dosing tricky and poisoning inverts).

 

[Subsea]

You can’t build an immunity to ich - it’s a parasitic infection that, in an aquarium with limited space, will always multiply to outbreak conditions.

If you do hypo, I wouldn’t add any meds to the display tank. Rocks and sand absorb copper and leach it out at a later date (making dosing tricky and poisoning inverts).

“You can’t build an immunity to ich - it’s a parasitic infection that, in an aquarium with limited space, will always multiply to outbreak conditions.“

Wrong!

Fish slime: An answer to antibiotic resistance?

When @Paul B is asked about what is his proof concerning his “no quarantine” policy for fish, aside from a successful tank after 50 years, his counter is “Look at all the threads on disease forums”. So, when I found this peer reviewed article addressing natural immunity response of marine fish...

www.reef2reef.com

While I don’t look for ich infected fish, I received 10 hippo tangs from Divers Den with distressed fish showing ich in the bag. I added them to 120G display that was 20 years mature. All symptoms disappeared in 7 days. I haven’t seen ich or ich symptoms in 15 years and I have 11 marine tanks.

PS: If ich was in the display; then anemones, sponges and sea apples would eat free swimming ich.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

“You can’t build an immunity to ich - it’s a parasitic infection that, in an aquarium with limited space, will always multiply to outbreak conditions.“

Wrong!

Fish slime: An answer to antibiotic resistance?

When @Paul B is asked about what is his proof concerning his “no quarantine” policy for fish, aside from a successful tank after 50 years, his counter is “Look at all the threads on disease forums”. So, when I found this peer reviewed article addressing natural immunity response of marine fish...

www.reef2reef.com

While I don’t look for ich infected fish, I received 10 hippo tangs from Divers Den with distressed fish showing ich in the bag. I added them to 120G display that was 20 years mature. All symptoms disappeared in 7 days. I haven’t seen ich or ich symptoms in 15 years and I have 11 marine tanks.

PS: If ich was in the display; then anemones, sponges and sea apples would eat free swimming ich.

It's a bit of a complicated issue. It is possible to "manage" ich in some limited instances, here is a post about that:

"Ich Management"

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and...

www.reef2reef.com

However, ich reproduces through geometric progression. If the number of trophonts on a fish reach a certain number, the ich theronts themselves become a stressor, and overwhelm any immunity that that the fish might have.

Here is an excerpt from my book on immunity:

Immunity to disease​

The ability for a fish to fight off a disease (or not) is based on the level of immunity it has. A physically stressed fish will have a lower immunity level and be more prone to developing disease. However, people tend to rely too much on immunity, and they think that if they offer the fish a great diet, it will be (mostly) free of disease. Some people extrapolate that even further and think that if they have a sick fish, if they feed it will, they can cure it (the chicken soup syndrome). The reality is that fish have a less developed immune response than mammals do, and we know that with humans, even the best diet and exercise does not prevent all diseases and in some instances really doesn’t help much at all. Immunity varies between the parasite involved. Bacterial diseases are rarely communicable because the fish have good defense (skin structure) and good immunity against them. Fish don’t have much immunity against some parasites like Neobenedenia flukes.

Innate immunity – this is the fish’s genetic predisposition to being able to fight off infections using its normal antibody system. There are differences seen between species of fish, with the example of Achilles tangs being much more prone to developing Cryptocaryon infections than are yellow tangs. Innate immunity is the baseline level, the starting point and nothing really changes that in a given individual.

Immunity conferred by good diet/environment – Fish with lower stress levels will have better immunity. Keeping the fish in a stable aquarium, with no aggressive tankmates, good water quality and a great diet will help boost its immunity. However, people often fail to understand that the disease organism themselves can be a major stressor and can override all immunity conferred by a good environment. It is a grave mistake to attempt to treat an active disease outbreak solely by increasing the quality of the diet and environment.

Acquired immunity – This type of immunity is mounted by a fish after exposure to (and survival from) some disease outbreak. Antibodies are created to help the fish fight off future infections from that disease organism. Too many times in aquariums, the fish does not survive the disease challenge, so no acquired immunity is possible. In most cases, the only functional benefit for this is seen with sub-lethal viral diseases such as Lymphocystis; a fish that recovers from that disease rarely acquires it again. Wild fish have very little acquired immunity by virtue of not being infected with disease organisms to a high enough degree (or if they are, they get eaten by predators due to their weakened state). Immune responses in fish seem strongest against viruses and least against multi-celled parasites such as flukes. Parasites living on the skin or gills of fish are less exposed to the antibodies, so acquired immunity to protozoans and metazoans such as Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium and flukes is only partial and transient.

 

[EEE1986]

It's a bit of a complicated issue. It is possible to "manage" ich in some limited instances, here is a post about that:

"Ich Management"

Because this topic continues to come up, I wanted to create a sticky thread so that it is more easily referenced. Please understand that I am NOT presenting this as an optimum method for controlling marine ich, just putting it out there for people who want to try it. Also, do not pick and...

www.reef2reef.com

However, ich reproduces through geometric progression. If the number of trophonts on a fish reach a certain number, the ich theronts themselves become a stressor, and overwhelm any immunity that that the fish might have.

Here is an excerpt from my book on immunity:

Immunity to disease​

The ability for a fish to fight off a disease (or not) is based on the level of immunity it has. A physically stressed fish will have a lower immunity level and be more prone to developing disease. However, people tend to rely too much on immunity, and they think that if they offer the fish a great diet, it will be (mostly) free of disease. Some people extrapolate that even further and think that if they have a sick fish, if they feed it will, they can cure it (the chicken soup syndrome). The reality is that fish have a less developed immune response than mammals do, and we know that with humans, even the best diet and exercise does not prevent all diseases and in some instances really doesn’t help much at all. Immunity varies between the parasite involved. Bacterial diseases are rarely communicable because the fish have good defense (skin structure) and good immunity against them. Fish don’t have much immunity against some parasites like Neobenedenia flukes.

Innate immunity – this is the fish’s genetic predisposition to being able to fight off infections using its normal antibody system. There are differences seen between species of fish, with the example of Achilles tangs being much more prone to developing Cryptocaryon infections than are yellow tangs. Innate immunity is the baseline level, the starting point and nothing really changes that in a given individual.

Immunity conferred by good diet/environment – Fish with lower stress levels will have better immunity. Keeping the fish in a stable aquarium, with no aggressive tankmates, good water quality and a great diet will help boost its immunity. However, people often fail to understand that the disease organism themselves can be a major stressor and can override all immunity conferred by a good environment. It is a grave mistake to attempt to treat an active disease outbreak solely by increasing the quality of the diet and environment.

Acquired immunity – This type of immunity is mounted by a fish after exposure to (and survival from) some disease outbreak. Antibodies are created to help the fish fight off future infections from that disease organism. Too many times in aquariums, the fish does not survive the disease challenge, so no acquired immunity is possible. In most cases, the only functional benefit for this is seen with sub-lethal viral diseases such as Lymphocystis; a fish that recovers from that disease rarely acquires it again. Wild fish have very little acquired immunity by virtue of not being infected with disease organisms to a high enough degree (or if they are, they get eaten by predators due to their weakened state). Immune responses in fish seem strongest against viruses and least against multi-celled parasites such as flukes. Parasites living on the skin or gills of fish are less exposed to the antibodies, so acquired immunity to protozoans and metazoans such as Cryptocaryon, Amyloodinium and flukes is only partial and transient.

Not sure if this means ich is ruled out but the fish looks completely fine now 5 days into owning with some small white spots on his fins which might just be normal coloration. The body is completely clear. Can ich wax and wane like this? Perhaps now that he is more settled he is less immunosuppressed then when he was originally placed in the new tank and stressed to all hell?

 

[shookONES]

You can’t build an immunity to ich - it’s a parasitic infection that, in an aquarium with limited space, will always multiply to outbreak conditions.

If you do hypo, I wouldn’t add any meds to the display tank. Rocks and sand absorb copper and leach it out at a later date (making dosing tricky and poisoning inverts).

This is just incorrect. Plenty (dare I say majority) of tanks have ich populations at some level. I’m willing to bet more people kill their fish by going the nuclear route versus just leaving them alone.

 

[shookONES]

Not sure if this means ich is ruled out but the fish looks completely fine now 5 days into owning with some small white spots on his fins which might just be normal coloration. The body is completely clear. Can ich wax and wane like this? Perhaps now that he is more settled he is less immunosuppressed then when he was originally placed in the new tank and stressed to all hell?

Absolutely. Ich is opportunistic. Under stress, it tends to appear. But a fat, healthy, established fish usually has no issues.