Indonesia Situation

[markstubb]

Dr Mac, as always, thank you for the updates. I'm still keeping my ear to whatever tracks I can find here, but no real updates since the last movement. Still haven't seen much of any coral show up here in Malaysia that's not from Australia. Nothing local, either, that I'm aware of.

 

[dodgerblew]

Thanks again for the info Dr. Mac. Please, don't stop! I see you as a "phone a friend" lifeline in this madness. I'm an old timer in the hobby and you are one of the first online vendors I ever dealt with, you and Reefer Madness, remember them. To think of the supply chain drying up is disappointing. I wish you the best on what you're considering with the SI. I hope it works out...for all of us.

 

[Nopy117]

Very crushing to hear that the "ban lift" was essentially bogus, or at least effectively useless. Tough to navigate and determine the prices of corals when the supply chain is hearsay and rumors.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Very crushing to hear that the "ban lift" was essentially bogus, or at least effectively useless. Tough to navigate and determine the prices of corals when the supply chain is hearsay and rumors.

You are correct in regards to pricing. As far as the ban lifted pronouncement, my opinion is that was a political leveraging for future legal action.

 

[wesman42]

I personally don't take an extreme stance on either end of this. I am able to deduce scientific information from voluminous studies showing that nature coral reefs around the world are bleaching at a staggering rate. Does that impact aquacultured coral? Apparently not. It's wild collection that I truly have a problem with considering the florida keys are already gone, hawaii is bleaching, and half the great barrier is gone since 2014.

HOWEVER, I am also able to see that aquaculturing was created to be sustainable. Otherwise, what would be the point? Just jack all the coral you want from existing reefs before they're bleached out, too. It's apparent that what's going on in Indo is political, and nothing more than accepting scientific mis-information as fact, in order to gain political points with (who? again?). There are ultra-conservatives that will disagree with me, there are ultra-liberals that will disagree with me. I put myself right in the middle, because I'm able to see that the hobby industry is much less destructive than dragging a fishing net over a reef.

 

[shred5]

I personally don't take an extreme stance on either end of this. I am able to deduce scientific information from voluminous studies showing that nature coral reefs around the world are bleaching at a staggering rate. Does that impact aquacultured coral? Apparently not. It's wild collection that I truly have a problem with considering the florida keys are already gone, hawaii is bleaching, and half the great barrier is gone since 2014.

HOWEVER, I am also able to see that aquaculturing was created to be sustainable. Otherwise, what would be the point? Just jack all the coral you want from existing reefs before they're bleached out, too. It's apparent that what's going on in Indo is political, and nothing more than accepting scientific mis-information as fact, in order to gain political points with (who? again?). There are ultra-conservatives that will disagree with me, there are ultra-liberals that will disagree with me. I put myself right in the middle, because I'm able to see that the hobby industry is much less destructive than dragging a fishing net over a reef.

and yet this:

https://www.iflscience.com/environm...eef-is-showing-significant-signs-of-recovery/

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-06/great-barrier-reef-showing-signs-of-recovery


Some hope.

They are discovering new reefs.

Things are not great but allot of these people make things worse than they are because they need funding. If they said things were great what would happen?

Some areas are bad while others thrive.

The truth is probably in the middle.

 

[wesman42]

and yet this:

https://www.iflscience.com/environm...eef-is-showing-significant-signs-of-recovery/

Some hope.

They are discovering new reefs.

Things are not great but allot of these people make things worse than they are because they need funding. If they said things were great what would happen?

Some areas are bad while others thrive.

I know that you can pay for a scientific study...but what I don't understand is why the florida keys no longer have a reef. I know for a fact that Australia has always been keen on protecting the environment, but are Florida and Hawaii showing signs of recovery?

 

[redfishbluefish]

A number of post have been removed....please stay on topic in this thread.

 

[shred5]

I know that you can pay for a scientific study...but what I don't understand is why the florida keys no longer have a reef. I know for a fact that Australia has always been keen on protecting the environment, but are Florida and Hawaii showing signs of recovery?

Thats not what I meant. The scientists need funding so they lie about how bad things are. They only show stuff from areas that are bad. I have been watching a ton of dive videos from Indonesia from the last few years and have not seen one bleached coral. That does not mean there are none.

I saw first hand when the reefs in Florida started to decline on a dive there many many years ago. Huge stands of acropora cervicornis dead. Caribbean reefs were diseased and were actually starting to come back.

Now there is a new threat there maybe caused by the dredging of the Port of Miami. Some reefs in the Caribbean are not in bad shape why?

Fact is the Carribean has a small variety of sps and only really two fast growing acros and there main way to propagate is through fragmentation. That is a slow process to spread that way and for the reefs to recover. Most stony corals in the caribbean are slow growers so it is a slow process. That is why replanting efforts are important to help them spread.

Bleaching has been going on for a long time.


Do not get me wrong some reefs need help.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

Wow, this hobby used to be relaxing and fun. I think some want to turn it into something else. I'm a old dog, and my opinion is worth only the 2 cents I charge for it so take it or leave it. Dr Mac, you are still respected by me and have been for a couple decades. Since I bought one of my first acro colonies from you that I propagated for many years, passing many seeds all over creation. I appreciate you Doc, and keep doin what you do. Thumbs up sir.

Hey Dan, thanks. That's cool about the Acro! Us old guys gotta stick together

 

[Turbo's Aquatics]

I'm able to see that the hobby industry is much less destructive than dragging a fishing net over a reef.

n-n-n-n-n-nailed it

Also worth noting, check this video out

Either watch the whole thing (which is full of interesting, boring nerd geek stuff) or just cut to the point I am trying to make which starts at 18:00 using this direct link

https://youtu.be/-R2BMEfQGjU?t=1080

and then again at 19:00

https://youtu.be/-R2BMEfQGjU?t=1140

TLDR or TLDW version: more people -> more fishing -> less grazers -> more algae -> less corals

Also FYI this guy also has a segment where he goes over what he calls the "coral killing machine" where he simulates all kinds of nasty conditions and extremes of salinty, pH, temperature, etc etc etc and guess what doesn't kill off coral...watch and find out, it's a really good video.



Still too short attention spanned to watch it? ok then. It's the fishing industry - Not the coral hobbyist trade - that is killing reefs. If anything, the people who do it sustainably should be given big frickin medals and certifications and seals of approval and government grants to keep doing what they're doing. Hey here's an idea, create a grant program that you can WIN if you show that you are benefiting the environment, then watch how many companies clamor to get their @#$% together and get some of that cheese!

If these extreme environmentalists REALLY cared about the actual environment, they would take the time to understand that corals in the ocean are like old forests in many ways. Old trees actually use much more oxygen and consume much less CO2 than young, growing trees. So logically, if you *GASP* cut down old trees and plant new trees, you actually *wait for it* sequester more carbon out of the environment (air). Similarly it's been demonstrated that taking a huge mother colony that is centuries old (and only actively growing on top, essentially) and just thinning it out a bit, taking those frags and culturing them and putting them back into the ocean helps 1) the old coral grow faster than it would if you left it alone and 2) the smaller frags grow faster outside of the centuries old colony, enough that you can harvest and sell enough to make it profitable enough that you can actually run a viable business doing it WHILE causing more coral to actually grow in the ocean than you would if you did nothing.

Correct me if I got it wrong somewhere (I'm betting I did, a little) but pretty much, why are people stupid and don't get this (note:I'm not necessarily referring to those that would be able to prove me wrong logically and scientifically, but rather those that have no clue at all and think the coral trade is essentially dudes bashing corals with a hammer and then rolling in piles of cash with a bunch of ******* and a bunch of blow), and why are politicians allowed to exist when science like this is out there (not the ******* and blow part, but I think you get what I mean)

THERE IS A WAY. Now once I win that MM/PB jackpot, I'll figure out who to pay off and get all this done...(note: I hear that ******* and blow will help you get through to the politicians)

Sorry for my lewdness, I am quite exhausted today, and I tend to get punchy when I'm exhausted. But I did learn that ******* is on the bad word list. ;Hilarious

 

[siggy]

Thanks for sharing that Floyd, carbon dosing a catch 22? oops! that's for another thread

 

[Dan Rigle]

Hey Dan, thanks. That's cool about the Acro! Us old guys gotta stick together

Yep, sure do. It was a a. Sarmentosa that turned into a gem after a few years. I Remember it well. I know some of us grow a whole lot more then we removed from the reefs, and those seeds grew more colonies that produced seeds. So I'm good with what we do doc. We're good buddy

 

[oddomatic]

Looking over the areas of action for the 2018 Our Ocean Conference, there is a section dedicated to Marine Protected Areas. The description, however, is pretty vague. In the details of its cause, it doesn’t explicitly say they are looking for commitments to continue to ban coral trade. But, it does mention “The Our Ocean Conference is looking for commitments to develop effective regional networks of MPAs, and to support them with sufficient economic resources, technical capacity and participatory sustainable management.” Hopefully that can and will include controlled mariculture trade in the future. Time will tell.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@PacificEastAquaculture
Is Palau or Guam even an option for a mariculture station? I know the flights are more frequent from Guam. And it would seem as a U.S. Protectorate to be something to look at as far as Cities and related issues.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

@PacificEastAquaculture
Is Palau or Guam even an option for a mariculture station? I know the flights are more frequent from Guam. And it would seem as a U.S. Protectorate to be something to look at as far as Cities and related issues.

No hard corals would be allowed. Palau does have clam hatchery and we get those in.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

No hard corals would be allowed. Palau does have clam hatchery and we get those in.

So it is not possible to get a permit and build a grow out station on land then? Some thing like Walt Smith did in Fiji? That is to bad. What about fish and other inverts from Palau?

 

[oddomatic]

Also, The conference notes under actions for a Sustainable Blue Economy that “There is huge untapped potential. Areas such as aquaculture, offshore renewable energy, blue biotechnology, coastal tourism and marine mineral resources hold major opportunities to foster Blue Growth and promote inclusive development by generating new employment opportunities.” Regarding the above mention of aquaculture, it sounds like there could be hope for controlled mariculture in the future... All I’m saying is that maybe we shouldn’t be quick to assume that Susi is going to completely rule out controlled mariculture in the future and seeks to destroy coral trade world wide. I understand that there are people in Indonesia that have a much better grasp of the current situation than I do but personally, I still am holding out for concrete confirmation of what is to come.

https://ourocean2018.org/?l=areas-of-action&#fisheries

 

[shred5]

So it is not possible to get a permit and build a grow out station on land then? Some thing like Walt Smith did in Fiji? That is to bad. What about fish and other inverts from Palau?

My question is who will do it even if you could? Cost money and in some these smaller countries it could be band the next day like what happened in Fiji and Indonesia. getting to be too much risk.
Same with fish. Most economic place to do it is near the ocean in warmer climates. In the USA land is to expensive near the ocean.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

So it is not possible to get a permit and build a grow out station on land then? Some thing like Walt Smith did in Fiji? That is to bad. What about fish and other inverts from Palau?

If they can't collect it and can't ship it then building a facility is irrelevant. Hard corals are considered endangered animals and require CITES permits and local permits to collect and transport.

I'm in the process of going to another Island and starting a farm there, with the full support of the government-that is the real key to long term success. I did it 12 years ago in the Solomon Islands, 8 years ago in French Polynesia, and over the last couple years in Indonesia, all eventually failed due to unstable or uncooperative governments. Will have to see how this new adventure plays out. It takes commitment, time, and money, for sure doesn't just happen on its own and keeping it going is the real challenge.