My Current QT Process

[Brew12]

@HotRocks Is there a level of copper that kills tomonts (no matter how unsafe for fish)?

Not that I am aware of, although I do believe I remember reading somewhere a post by @Brew12 that was linked to a write up about copper damaging tomonts. Bleach will safely destroy anything unwanted though if you are looking for a way to sterilize a tank free of parasites and bacteria.

I'm not sure there is a level. At one point I came across a study that showed Tomonts may not be killed after 20 to 24 days in copper but that they will be rendered unable to reproduce. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find that study again so I don't have all the details. I believe this phenomena is why so many people have been successful doing a 30 day treatment since we know tomonts may take 60+ days to hatch.
I do agree that bleach is a much safer option that dumping in a bunch more copper.

 

[Victoria M]

Not that I am aware of, although I do believe I remember reading somewhere a post by @Brew12 that was linked to a write up about copper damaging tomonts. Bleach will safely destroy anything unwanted though if you are looking for a way to sterilize a tank free of parasites and bacteria.

I'm not sure there is a level. At one point I came across a study that showed Tomonts may not be killed after 20 to 24 days in copper but that they will be rendered unable to reproduce. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find that study again so I don't have all the details. I believe this phenomena is why so many people have been successful doing a 30 day treatment since we know tomonts may take 60+ days to hatch.
I do agree that bleach is a much safer option that dumping in a bunch more copper.

Thank you gentlemen.

 

[Brew12]

Thank you gentlemen.

You know you quoted Kyle and I with this, right?

 

[Victoria M]

You know you quoted Kyle and I with this, right?

Yeah, I know.

 

[Toomnymods]

Im new to the world of QT and just sick of losing fish due to various reasons (ich, velvet, brook,etc)
I already have multiple 40 gallon breeder tanks in the garage with sponge filters. Would the sponge filter or hob filters work best for QT? Read thru this whole thing multiple times and seems all it does is confuse me more. Can someone who wouldnt mind helping out a new guy to QT pls pm me a list of what days get what treatment and what days to transfer to new tank and then treat with another medication? Would be easier to understand if so many people wherent asking questions and people chiming in with diffrent advice. Just sick of losing fish and really would like to let my 220 g reeftank go fallow for 72 days and start fresh.
Also can a orange diamond goby go thru qt? How do you feed him since he filters food thru the sand and doesnt directly eat from the water column??

 

[Wowkuh]

@HotRocks

Would it be possible that after 14days in copper to transfer all fish (with same water) into a holding area (ie. Container/buckets) while I clean And sterilize the same QT they they've been in And set it back up (without copper obviously) and then transfer them back into the Same (cleaned) QT?

Also, assuming a good rinsing of sponge filters would be pointless? I would need all new sponges?

 

[Conor_K]

I’m curious about the goby question to Mr. QT Guru.

 

[HotRocks]

Im new to the world of QT and just sick of losing fish due to various reasons (ich, velvet, brook,etc)
I already have multiple 40 gallon breeder tanks in the garage with sponge filters. Would the sponge filter or hob filters work best for QT? Read thru this whole thing multiple times and seems all it does is confuse me more. Can someone who wouldnt mind helping out a new guy to QT pls pm me a list of what days get what treatment and what days to transfer to new tank and then treat with another medication? Would be easier to understand if so many people wherent asking questions and people chiming in with diffrent advice. Just sick of losing fish and really would like to let my 220 g reeftank go fallow for 72 days and start fresh.
Also can a orange diamond goby go thru qt? How do you feed him since he filters food thru the sand and doesnt directly eat from the water column??

I would be glad to help you out over PM.

I’m curious about the goby question to Mr. QT Guru.

The goby should still eat frozen prepared food in QT, you can put a small pyrex with sand in the QT so he has a place to sift if you prefer. I use the same technique for leopard and other burrowing wrasses. I use Fiji Pink Dry Sand FWIW. I also rinse it very well prior to placement in QT. Its very dirty stuff.

 

[Salty Irishman]

I am frequently asked what my process is for QT, so I am just creating a thread that I can link users to for a reference.

On arrival day, I match salinity in QT to arriving fish or make sure it's a touch lower (Usually 1.018).

Acclimate (float for 30-45min in bag and release) fish directly into a QT that is pre-dosed to 1.0ppm copper (copper power) upon arrival. This is much safer than drip acclimation and removes the possibility of ammonia exposure during acclimation.

I start fish off on food soaked general cure + Focus day one (continue for 14 days).
I do also keep live food on hand and feed live foods as well for the first few days until the picky eaters and others are eating frozen well.

Dosage for food soaked meds:
Add 1 scoop of GC (scoop that comes with focus) + 1 scoop focus per 1 tablsespoon of prepared frozen food. I add selcon + a touch of garlic to help dissolve the meds.
*You can also use Metroplex in place of general cure, it does however only treat for intestinal parasites instead of intestinal parasites + worms*. This food can be refrigerated once medicated. Is for 3-5 days, toss and make new.

Then I spend the next three days raising cu level to 1.75ppm. increasing the level .25ppm per day. I do this by dosing half of the daily increase in the am and the other half in the pm.

At this point I am watching very closely for external symptoms of bacterial infections. If one arises or a fish prone to infection stops eating then I dose Spectogram (Kanamycin+Nitrofurazone) and continue throughout copper. You can also use Kanaplex+furan-2. The WCs are fun maintaining the therapeutic Cu level. But once you have the hang of it, it's not bad. Copper has to be pre-dosed into new SW prior to adding to tank to keep Cu level from dropping below therapeutic.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ratios-for-dosing-copper-power.385871/

Also, If you are combining ABX + Copper you need heavy agitation at the surface of the water. This can be best achieved by running a powerhead aimed upward at the surface. I also run air stone and HOB filter. The combination of these meds will deplete the water column of oxygen at a heavy rate so you have to compensate.

Keep in mind ABX are slow to work on fish. They are likely to be even slower in the presence of copper due to the weakened immune system. So the Spectogram IME has always prevented infection from worsening. Some have healed. I do also keep Sulfaplex and Neoplex handy for certain types of infections. They are safe to use with copper.

After 14 days of therapeutic copper I transfer to a 2nd sterile QT. Temp/salinity matching.

After the transfer if I have a fish that is still showing signs of infection I would run a 14 day course of NFG. If no signs of infection is present I would skip NFG.

Last step is two rounds of Praziquantel using either GC or Prazipro. I prefer GC as it contains metronidazole as well and covers a few other diseases like Brook and uronema. This treatment is dosed into the water column to treat externally, as I have covered internal issues during copper with the food soaked meds.

14 Days of observation post medications prior to transfer to DT in order to make sure the fish are healthy and disease free.

This is a very aggressive approach. I can tell you though I have improved my success rate significantly since adapting to this method. It is not bulletproof. The bottom line is you may have to changeup in the middle of the process due to unforeseen circumstances.

After the Hanna checker discovery I was getting fish through copper without much issue, but using the same tank and treating for 30 days I was losing fish in the 20-30 day range to bacterial infection. So now using multiple tanks and reducing the copper exposure time along with having the proper ABX to be used with/without copper it is what worked best for me. We are still working on tweaking it a bit. Most of this system was designed/adapted with much help of @Humblefish + @4FordFamily. To keep up with the unfortunate condition we have recently been receiving it may have to be altered as time passes.

I also preform FW dips if I see a fish scratching in copper (After 7 days at the therapeutic level) to check for flukes and/or provide temporary relief. If a fish arrives with velvet/velvet symptoms they get a FW dip as well as a 90 min Ruby Reef rally bath per @Humblefish's normal protocol.

Fish with suspected ammonia burn would receive a 30 min bath in Methalyne Blue.

My Personal Medication list:
Copper Power
API General Cure
NFG http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html
Spectrogram http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquatronics.html#spectrogram
Kanaplex
Metroplex
Neoplex
Sulfaplex
Furan-2
Methalyne Blue
Ruby Reef Rally
Formalin

This is a very helpful link by @Humblefish regarding fish meds:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/medications-to-keep-on-hand.213574/

Couple other great links regarding QT:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/unread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/the-dos-and-don’ts-of-quarantine.203898/unread
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-control-in-a-hospital-tank.296119/

Is it ok or do you have any experience substituting Cupramine for copper power using their parameters of .5mg/L as a final concentration?

 

[HotRocks]

Is it ok or do you have any experience substituting Cupramine for copper power using their parameters of .5mg/L as a final concentration?

I do have experience with cupramine. However I have not used it in the last year and a half or so, I also have not combined medications with it like I have with copper power.

I find it to be much more harsh than chelated personally, which is why I choose to use copper power.

 

[Salty Irishman]

Ok thank you. Kind of in a jam here. Fish due @ my door today and just found this thread. All I have on hand is Cupramine. Any thoughts you can share are certainly appreciated!

 

[Wowkuh]

I'll share my thoughts. @Salty Irishman

I JUST did my first copper treatment. I bought cupramine (not thinking anything of it). I then did more research and ended up getting copper power, reasons why? The effective range for copper power is 1.5--2.5 (or was it 2.0?) Any who, the effective range for cupramine is less, i think only at .5? Any more and its over exposure any less and its ineffective. the sweet spot for copper power is 1.75. And even with my best efforts, and help from @HotRocks I wasn't able to hit 1.75. I did however get to 1.83 and after a water change get to 1.77 but at least I knew i was still at a therapeutic level . Basically, its hard, as it'll fluctuate and it'll be hard to dial it in. Especially when youre dealing with a water changes, water displacement, etc. Let's say, with cupramine you hit .5..... And a week later you do a water change and it dips below, well guess what? Restart the clock.... You just wasted a week lol. My point is, at least with copper power you have a little wiggle room. Also, i suggest getting a hanna copper checker as well

 

[Salty Irishman]

Great points! So from here what are your thoughts of floating the fish for temp, matching SPG and putting into quarantine until I can get copper power and then dose with fish already present in quarantine and then start feeding the GC as well?

 

[Wowkuh]

Thats basically what I did. My fish were in clean, no med QT for about 3 weeks before started showing signs of ich. Once ich appeared, then I started dosing. I took my fish from my DT which I know had ich, currently DT is fallow. Reason I took so long to treat was I was gathering supplies, test kids and researching. @Salty Irishman

 

[Salty Irishman]

Very good, I thank you both for sharing your experience as I plan on following this regimen as closely as possible to ensure a positive outcome. Now to ordering...

 

[aruns]

I am in a similar situation as some of the other posters here. Just setting up my first SW and want to QT in a proper way, yet avoid having to maintain 2 QT tanks and do a TT at day 14 if I can help it.

Would the following protocol work effectively? If this would work, I can get away with one QT setup. Would this work for fish that are active and outwardly look healthy and have started eating well (meaning, there is no immediate need for copper or specific treatments)?
1. Do a freshwater dip and get the fish into QT without any medication for the first day or two. Use this time to let the fish get settled and observation. Get the fish eating, with live food if necessary
2. Next, dose the water column with GC for 14 days. During this time, feed frozen food mixed with selcon and garlic
3. After 14 days, do a complete water change and start copper (start with 1.0 pmm and increase it to 1.75 ppm as suggested by @HotRocks ). Also, start adding GC + Focus into the food mix now. Do this for 14 days.
4. If fish show symptoms or signs of infection during any time, treat as suggested by original posting


Talking to a couple of LFS, i was told that typically fish get shipped in copper water. Is this typically at therapeutic levels? Would this affect the QT in any way or stress the fish more than needed?

If the fish look active and eating well, any reason to get them directly into medication rather than have them settled and start eating the first day or two?

 

[Rython]

Getting them directly into medication is one of the unique features of this method. I can only imagine they developed this after losing several fish that appeared healthy upon arrival, but then suddenly died from Velvet or a Bacterial infection, which can often be too advanced by the time you see symptoms for the treatments to have time to work. Copper takes days to start helping, and based on my experience with antibiotics, they can often take even longer.

I can tell you from experience that once you lose a few fish, fish that appeared healthy so you held off on treatment to get them eating, or "settled in", or whatever, the first thing you're going to wonder is "Would that fish have lived if i'd started treatment immediately?"

To me that's the whole point of this method: Intervention as soon as possible while mitigating the associated negative affects (if there are any - which is debatable). So it's a choice as always. This method has strengths and weaknesses. It isn't perfect. But it has significantly increased my success rate. I do admit, I wonder if one of the fish I lost could have been due to medication stress, but at the end of the day, i'm wondering why 10% of fish died vs. probably 40% using my old method, which held off on medicating until I saw symptoms or 3 days had passed.

As for the copper water, it depends on the source, but it's unlikely to ever be theraputic. You shouldn't transfer a significant amount of bag water to the QT, so it only matters because it means that you shouldn't add prime to the bag water when you open it if there's any chance it could have copper in it.

 

[aruns]

@Rython Great explanation, thanks!

Is that the reason you'd also want to start with copper first - to treat for the more devastating diseases? In that sense, starting with dosing GC in water column followed by copper won't be ideal?

 

[Big G]

@Rython Great explanation, thanks!

Is that the reason you'd also want to start with copper first - to treat for the more devastating diseases? In that sense, starting with dosing GC in water column followed by copper won't be ideal?

GC first and then copper was very popular until the fairly recent velvet epidemic. Too many of us were losing fish too quickly. So many of us reversed the order and now go directly to copper or CP, + antibiotics to combat the more recent bacterial infections popping up constantly with new fish.

 

[aruns]

Thanks @Big G I understand now the reasoning behind the protocol that @HotRocks originally posted on this thread. Petco's dollar-per-gallon sale is going on now, time to get one more 20L