New fish quarantine API general cure directions?

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal yea I think 2.1 is the sweet spot will go to there and see how much it drops

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal im not sure how to do water change is prime/stress coat safe to use with copper power?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal im not sure how to do water change is prime/stress coat safe to use with copper power?

It is best to avoid using reducing agents with amine-chelated copper products. The risk is that these might break the ammonia-copper bond, releasing more toxic free copper. These products include formaldehyde, sodium thiosulfate (dechlor), and most ammonia removing water treatments.

You don’t need any water conditioners if you are using Instant Ocean or most other US sea salts, as these all have a small amount of dechlor in them. If you do use a water conditioner, use it at the minimum dose, before you add salt. Then, mix it well and dose that volume with copper.

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal will be transferring fish to sterile qt on day 21 of copper treatment and will keep therapeutic copper levels running in main display fallow. How long will the ich and or flukes survive at 86 degrees with therapeutic copper levels fallow?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal will be transferring fish to sterile qt on day 21 of copper treatment and will keep therapeutic copper levels running in main display fallow. How long will the ich and or flukes survive at 86 degrees with therapeutic copper levels fallow?

Sorry, there isn't any way to really calculate that without pure guesswork. Fluke eggs can remain unhatched for up to 30 days.

21 days of copper is about a week too short for 100% control.

 

[Arose231]

Sorry, there isn't any way to really calculate that without pure guesswork. Fluke eggs can remain unhatched for up to 30 days.

21 days of copper is about a week too short for 100% control.

With the tank transfer after 21 days they will be safe and stil shielded by the copper

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal then why does humblefish recommend a transfer to sterile qt after 14 days?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

With the tank transfer after 21 days they will be safe and stil shielded by the copper

Trouble is, copper does not kill ich trophonts or tomonts, only the theront/tomite stage. It really takes 30 days to ensure there are no trophonts left, and few if any tomonts.

Ionic copper is often dosed for 21 days, but not because it works faster, but because it is more toxic and you need to get the fish out of it asap.

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal is 35 days in copper power ok for the eel and puffer? Had to start over the first week because they didn’t like it at first so it will be technically 35 days instead of 28. They are all eating and breathing normally only one that isn’t eating is the eel for 3 weeks now

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal is 35 days in copper power ok for the eel and puffer? Had to start over the first week because they didn’t like it at first so it will be technically 35 days instead of 28. They are all eating and breathing normally only one that isn’t eating is the eel for 3 weeks now

The difference between 30 and 35 days of copper won't make any real difference. The only issue you have is the eel that's not eating. A healthy eel can survive that time (and even longer) but if the eel was thin to begin with, it may struggle. What species is it? Does it have good body mass?

 

[Arose231]

The difference between 30 and 35 days of copper won't make any real difference. The only issue you have is the eel that's not eating. A healthy eel can survive that time (and even longer) but if the eel was thin to begin with, it may struggle. What species is it? Does it have good body mass?

@Jay Hemdal it is a snowflake have for 2 years now stopped eating after started copper treatment

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal it is a snowflake have for 2 years now stopped eating after started copper treatment

That should be fine since its not a fresh import. I've had snowflakes go off feed for 3 months and then start back up with no issues.

 

[Arose231]

That should be fine since it’s not a fresh import. I've had snowflakes go off feed for 3 months and then start back up with no issues.

@Jay Hemdal yea only one more week to go then will do big water change add cuprisorb and will remove all the sand as well.

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal why hasn’t the serum from Foxface rabbitfish been made or produced since it has a lethal toxin that actually kills ich this would be a huge advancement for saltwater fish and aquariums

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal why hasn’t the serum from Foxface rabbitfish been made or produced since it has a lethal toxin that actually kills ich this would be a huge advancement for saltwater fish and aquariums

Foxface have a thicker mucus coat that can shed Cryptocaryon trophonts, but they still die from the disease if not treated. I cannot say that they have any sort of chemical resistance.

 

[Arose231]

Foxface have a thicker mucus coat that can shed Cryptocaryon trophonts, but they still die from the disease if not treated. I cannot say that they have any sort of chemical resistance.

@Jay Hemdal this proves they have a serum that kills ich

A novel protein isolated from the serum of rabbitfish (Siganus oramin) is lethal to Cryptocaryon irritans - PubMed

The susceptibility of eight marine fish species cultured in South China were tested for infection by the parasitic ciliate, Cryptocaryon irritans, via a challenge examination and an immobilization assay. All species of fish (representing six different families) that we investigated were infected...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal this proves they have a serum that kills ich

A novel protein isolated from the serum of rabbitfish (Siganus oramin) is lethal to Cryptocaryon irritans - PubMed

The susceptibility of eight marine fish species cultured in South China were tested for infection by the parasitic ciliate, Cryptocaryon irritans, via a challenge examination and an immobilization assay. All species of fish (representing six different families) that we investigated were infected...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Thanks, I hadn't seen that. I wasn't able to locate the full paper though....

However, empirically, we know that while rabbitfish are partially resistant to Cryptocaryon, they still die from it in captivity. I had always thought that the mechanism was due to the mucus shedding. I can't rule out that the mucus doesn't also contain some anti-parasitic effect, but I do know that it is not a complete immunity.

Here is a recent thread where the only fish in an tank to show signs of ich was a foxface:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/foxface%E2%80%A6-is-this-ick.1155757/

You need to be REALLY careful about papers like this published in China. I don't know if it is sloppy science, or a problem with translation, but there are a higher amount of errors in these publications than is seen in Western scientific papers, especially those that study aquariums, versus aquaculture.

A few years ago, there was a big deal about one of these papers where they used sheets of copper in a tank that cured ich, 100% of the time. People jumped on that idea, but they missed the section of the paper where 100% of the water was changed in the tank twice a day (grin).

 

[Arose231]

Thanks, I hadn't seen that. I wasn't able to locate the full paper though....

However, empirically, we know that while rabbitfish are partially resistant to Cryptocaryon, they still die from it in captivity. I had always thought that the mechanism was due to the mucus shedding. I can't rule out that the mucus doesn't also contain some anti-parasitic effect, but I do know that it is not a complete immunity.

Here is a recent thread where the only fish in an tank to show signs of ich was a foxface:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/foxface%E2%80%A6-is-this-ick.1155757/

You need to be REALLY careful about papers like this published in China. I don't know if it is sloppy science, or a problem with translation, but there are a higher amount of errors in these publications than is seen in Western scientific papers, especially those that study aquariums, versus aquaculture.

A few years ago, there was a big deal about one of these papers where they used sheets of copper in a tank that cured ich, 100% of the time. People jumped on that idea, but they missed the section of the paper where 100% of the water was changed in the tank twice a day (grin).

Heard about the sheets of copper that was a terrible idea

 

[Arose231]

@Jay Hemdal how many days to do inverts have to be left in qt for the ich to die in there. They have been in there now for 37 days at 78 degrees how much longer. Probably by the time remove all the copper out they will be ready to go back in 30 gallon

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal how many days to do inverts have to be left in qt for the ich to die in there. They have been in there now for 37 days at 78 degrees how much longer. Probably by the time remove all the copper out they will be ready to go back in 30 gallon

That's a tough question to answer. Mobile invertebrates are typically safe after about a month. However, corals and any substrate has the potential of harboring ich tomonts for 45+ days, and I give them 60 days to be safe.