Refugium or filter

[Deontae]

Hey guys sorry for all the questions, I’m thinking of buying a cpr refugium for my 40 breeder. I currently have a tunze 9004 skinner and an aquaclear 70. If I get the small cpr fuge can that replace my ac70 or should I run both
Thanks

 

[Ippyroy]

I'd run both. The fuge will give a place for pods to live and reproduce plus help to lower NO3. It will slowly lower PO4.

 

[Dkmoo]

They serve different purposes. Filter takes out large food particles and waste, making them unavailable for your corals to absorb, and if you cleaned that out frequently enough, it will also make it unavailable for your bacteria to convert to no3 and Po4

A fuge, on the other hand, does nothing to the uneaten food and waste. It waits for bacteria to break everything down to no3 and po4 and absorbs that while releasing oxygen and maintaining PH.

Fuge generally adds more biodiversity and stability. Filter is more effective if there is a lot of uneaten food and waste, but only if its cleaned out frequently (every 3 days). If your ac70 also has a bacteria media and carbon media layer, then that's also not in the fuge, but can be easily incorporated into the fuge.

Whats more appropriate for your tank depends on your tanks status (bioload, nutrient need, waste profile, husbandry routine,, etc...) ie, filter may strip out too much food and waste if you have a lot of filter feeders or corals that needs it. Fuge may backfire and release waste back into your system is set up improperly or if water conditions are not conducive to chaeto growth. Running both may make your tank "too clean" if your tank has stuff that "prefers a little dirty" water, like if you have softies.

 

[Deontae]

They serve different purposes. Filter takes out large food particles and waste, making them unavailable for your corals to absorb, and if you cleaned that out frequently enough, it will also make it unavailable for your bacteria to convert to no3 and Po4

A fuge, on the other hand, does nothing to the uneaten food and waste. It waits for bacteria to break everything down to no3 and po4 and absorbs that while releasing oxygen and maintaining PH.

Fuge generally adds more biodiversity and stability. Filter is more effective if there is a lot of uneaten food and waste, but only if its cleaned out frequently (every 3 days). If your ac70 also has a bacteria media and carbon media layer, then that's also not in the fuge, but can be easily incorporated into the fuge.

Whats more appropriate for your tank depends on your tanks status (bioload, nutrient need, waste profile, husbandry routine,, etc...) ie, filter may strip out too much food and waste if you have a lot of filter feeders or corals that needs it. Fuge may backfire and release waste back into your system is set up improperly or if water conditions are not conducive to chaeto growth. Running both may make your tank "too clean" if your tank has stuff that "prefers a little dirty" water, like if you have softies.

Thank you for all the info, I’ll have to think about if it’s a good idea to get a fuge or not

 

[LegendaryCG]

You get a lot of natural benefits from having a fuge. Removed CO2, increases oxygen, stabalizes ph, reduces display algae, lowers nitrates and oxygen, and allows for a healthy Plankton population.

 

[Ippyroy]

They serve different purposes. Filter takes out large food particles and waste, making them unavailable for your corals to absorb, and if you cleaned that out frequently enough, it will also make it unavailable for your bacteria to convert to no3 and Po4

A fuge, on the other hand, does nothing to the uneaten food and waste. It waits for bacteria to break everything down to no3 and po4 and absorbs that while releasing oxygen and maintaining PH.

Fuge generally adds more biodiversity and stability. Filter is more effective if there is a lot of uneaten food and waste, but only if its cleaned out frequently (every 3 days). If your ac70 also has a bacteria media and carbon media layer, then that's also not in the fuge, but can be easily incorporated into the fuge.

Whats more appropriate for your tank depends on your tanks status (bioload, nutrient need, waste profile, husbandry routine,, etc...) ie, filter may strip out too much food and waste if you have a lot of filter feeders or corals that needs it. Fuge may backfire and release waste back into your system is set up improperly or if water conditions are not conducive to chaeto growth. Running both may make your tank "too clean" if your tank has stuff that "prefers a little dirty" water, like if you have softies.

In this case it may be true that the fuge won't remove larger particles, in my tank I use my fuge which grows chaeto very well as my main form of mechanical filtration. Between the chaeto, snails, and bristle worms I never have to wash filter socks nor replace filter floss.

 

[Dkmoo]

In this case it may be true that the fuge won't remove larger particles, in my tank I use my fuge which grows chaeto very well as my main form of mechanical filtration. Between the chaeto, snails, and bristle worms I never have to wash filter socks nor replace filter floss.

Yup agree - I'm not disputing fuge's benefits, a properly set up fuge is an amazing nutrient export and can be the only thing you need.

I'm just high lighting the difference to the OP bc "getting a fuge" is not a 1 size fits all answer and it has a specific set of conditon that must be met for it to be successful. A fuge is not a mechanic filter bc it doesnt physically remove waste, unless you count the super densely grown chaeto mass that can block the really large particles, or if you count the filter eaters like feather dusters that grow in it. But in either case it will not be as affective as a mechanical filter at that. What chaeto does is absorbing NO3 and PO4. So what it needs is sufficient no3 and po4 in the system, as well as sufficient waste break down capacity from bacteria that can quickly break down waste to no3/po4 to keep up with chaeto absorption. Since OP has had a mechanical filter, its unclear how much "extra waste processing power" his tank currently has to break down the waste to no3po4 fast enough if he were to suddenly replace the filter with a fuge. Thats why I said his water need to be conducive to chaeto growth before transitioning to fuge as the tank nees to be "primed" for it first. This is why you hear so many stories and posts on these forums that start with "why my chaeto is melting/crashing my tank and causing gha explosion"?

Also something else to consider the lighting requirement too that we didn't talk about.

Just trying to give OP the info to determine not just if fuge is good for his tank (it most likely will be at some point) but more importantly when it will be good.

 

[Ippyroy]

Yup agree - I'm not disputing fuge's benefits, a properly set up fuge is an amazing nutrient export and can be the only thing you need.

I'm just high lighting the difference to the OP bc "getting a fuge" is not a 1 size fits all answer and it has a specific set of conditon that must be met for it to be successful. A fuge is not a mechanic filter bc it doesnt physically remove waste, unless you count the super densely grown chaeto mass that can block the really large particles, or if you count the filter eaters like feather dusters that grow in it. But in either case it will not be as affective as a mechanical filter at that. What chaeto does is absorbing NO3 and PO4. So what it needs is sufficient no3 and po4 in the system, as well as sufficient waste break down capacity from bacteria that can quickly break down waste to no3/po4 to keep up with chaeto absorption. Since OP has had a mechanical filter, its unclear how much "extra waste processing power" his tank currently has to break down the waste to no3po4 fast enough if he were to suddenly replace the filter with a fuge. Thats why I said his water need to be conducive to chaeto growth before transitioning to fuge as the tank nees to be "primed" for it first. This is why you hear so many stories and posts on these forums that start with "why my chaeto is melting/crashing my tank and causing gha explosion"?

Also something else to consider the lighting requirement too that we didn't talk about.

Just trying to give OP the info to determine not just if fuge is good for his tank (it most likely will be at some point) but more importantly when it will be good.

I agree with you. I am in the process of building a new tank and I am hoping to replicate the fuge in it, but I might not be able to due to size and sump set up. My main downside is I have the fuge before the skimmer so pod production is way down in DT.
His set up would not work out like mine. I don't think it would be feasible to have a large enough skimmer nor get enough water through to work. A fuge in the sump is a requirement for that.

 

[Deontae]

I agree with you. I am in the process of building a new tank and I am hoping to replicate the fuge in it, but I might not be able to due to size and sump set up. My main downside is I have the fuge before the skimmer so pod production is way down in DT.
His set up would not work out like mine. I don't think it would be feasible to have a large enough skimmer nor get enough water through to work. A fuge in the sump is a requirement for that.

Do you guys think a small fuge could help get my ph up a little bit?

 

[Ippyroy]

Do you guys think a small fuge could help get my ph up a little bit?

The smaller the fuge, the smaller the benefits. An ATS might be a better fit for you. I am not completely sure of that.

 

[Dkmoo]

Keep in mind the other distinctions between filter and fuge that you can draw just based how the principles of how they work: with a filter, if say you have 50 parts of solid waste in the water column, assuming you have sufficient flow, then eventually all 50 will be picked up by the filter. The same is not true for fuge - if you have 50 parts of nitrate/phosphate, it doesn't mean all that is going to be absorbed by the fuge. The chaeto needs to be able to outcompete everything else in your DT that also absorbs it. For ex, with a small fuge maybe your chaeto absorbs 10 parts, resulting in 10 oz of chaeto growth, and the other 40 parts is absorbed by your much larger tank causing 40 oz of GHA growth giving you an algae explosion.

There are methods tip the scale in fuges favor, such as starting with a bigger chaeto mass, actively removing the algae in DT, or upgrading to better light in fuge. But in all cases there has to be a critical mass first before fuge can be successful.

Im not sure how big the fuge you try to get but typically a 40 breeder should be paired with a 10g to 20g sump/fuge to help with achieving that chaeto critical mass. Thats why ippiroy posted above on why he thinks how his fuge may or may not work on his two systems and why he thinks it may not work on yours

If you can't get something that big, consider an external algae scrubber or chaeto reactor instead. They are generally more space friendly than a fuge and compensate their smaller size with more targeted flow and lighting to achieve the same level of competition

 

[flyguy13]

Since you’re running an ac70 do a google search for modifying it into a fuge. A lot of nano tanks use them and you get both filter and fuge with what you have already.

 

[flyguy13]

Since you’re running an ac70 do a google search for modifying it into a fuge. A lot of nano tanks use them and you get both filter and fuge with what you have already.

 

[flyguy13]

Sorry didn’t mean to double post lol