A sideline discussion on Copper and overall benefits/detriments of prophylactic treatment in QT

[Subsea]

I describe my method but I do not say that its the only one - it had worked for me in a mature aquarium - but I´m not sure that it will work everywhere. Yes - it is a personal method and personal experiences. However - my method does not incorporate any chemical treatment just case. The only chemical I use is H2O2 in an oxydator. Especially if there is newcomers. But I wonder which form of open water micro animal that will survive here for a prolonged time?

Sincerely Lasse

You realize you have put yourself in the camp with PaulB.

@Lasse
When did you last eat crawfish? I am going to start
“end of summer” celebration today with a crawfish boil. If you come, we can invite Paul.

 

[Subsea]

What is unfortunate is that I can't access the original paper for some reason. (EDIT - I was able to open it) I agree that stress is an issue that should be minimized - for multiple reasons. However, there is a difference between 'Chronic stress' (which is mentioned in your first paragraph) and the stress, say, of netting a fish, or treating a disease.

For example - there are many people that (using the logic from your paper above) - that rather than vaccinate for covid, or vaccinate their kids at all should use various other methods. Of course it ignores the history of vaccinations - which clearly shows that they are helpful, though some vaccines can cause significant, even deadly side-effects.

I have seen many of the graphs and papers designed to show the hormonal effects of an acute stress on fish: netting, chasing, etc - the rise in, for example cortisol is very short lived lasting an hour or so after the 'event'. I personally do not see that as 'clinically significant', though it could be considered 'statistically significant'.

I do not know how the authors can say that 'chemical stress (disease treatment) causes the same stress as handling stress. mainly because IMHO - its difficult to try to pick the right measurement tool of stress. Is it cortisol? Behaviour? Epinephrine compounds, etc etc? Do fish who are constantly bullied - lets take a damsel that persistently chases all the other fish in the tank - have a higher likelihood of disease? If the disease is not in the tank after a QT?

PS I don't think @Jay Hemdal is promoting chemical treatments over good husbandry?

“I do not know how the authors can say that 'chemical stress (disease treatment) causes the same stress as handling stress. mainly because IMHO - its difficult to try to pick the right measurement tool of stress. Is it cortisol?“

When I read that for the first time, I didn’t fully agree.

HOWEVER
No one has commented on the first link from The National Libray of Medicine / National Biotech Institute

PS. My bad. Jay discounted the paper, because its focus was internal parasites. There are a many scientific articles referenced.

check out the third paragraph.

Current understanding on the roles of gut microbiota in fish disease and immunity

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Gut microbiota can affect fish physiology, development, life span, immunity, and barriers against pathogens (Burns et al., 2016; Nie et al., 2017; Smith et al., 2017; Yan et al., 2016). Therefore, the gut microbiota plays an indispensable role in fish fitness. Several recent reviews have centered on the diversity and functions of bacterial communities in healthy fish (de Bruijn et al., 2017), as well as on the external factors that affect fish gut microbiota (Wang et al., 2017) and interactions between gut microbiota and innate immunity in fish (Gómez & Balcázar, 2008; Nie et al., 2017). However, most previous studies have focused on factors that govern healthy gut microbiota, such as diet, rearing conditions, and fish genotype (Schmidt et al., 2015; Sullam et al., 2012; Yan et al., 2016). In contrast, few studies have reported on the interplay among gut microbiota, fish immunity, and disease (Nie et al., 2017). In this commentary, we summarize current knowledge on the associations between fish immunity, gut microbiota, and invading intestinal pathogens. We also highlight recent progress in uncovering the ecological processes of fish diseases“

 

[MnFish1]

What is unfortunate is that I can't access the original paper for some reason. (EDIT - I was able to open it) I agree that stress is an issue that should be minimized - for multiple reasons. However, there is a difference between 'Chronic stress' (which is mentioned in your first paragraph) and the stress, say, of netting a fish, or treating a disease.

“I do not know how the authors can say that 'chemical stress (disease treatment) causes the same stress as handling stress. mainly because IMHO - its difficult to try to pick the right measurement tool of stress. Is it cortisol?“

When I read that for the first time, I didn’t fully agree.

HOWEVER
No one has commented on the first link from The National Libray of Medicine / National Biotech Institute

PS. My bad. Jay discounted the paper, because its focus was internal parasites. There are a many scientific articles referenced.

check out the third paragraph.

Current understanding on the roles of gut microbiota in fish disease and immunity

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

“Gut microbiota can affect fish physiology, development, life span, immunity, and barriers against pathogens (Burns et al., 2016; Nie et al., 2017; Smith et al., 2017; Yan et al., 2016). Therefore, the gut microbiota plays an indispensable role in fish fitness. Several recent reviews have centered on the diversity and functions of bacterial communities in healthy fish (de Bruijn et al., 2017), as well as on the external factors that affect fish gut microbiota (Wang et al., 2017) and interactions between gut microbiota and innate immunity in fish (Gómez & Balcázar, 2008; Nie et al., 2017). However, most previous studies have focused on factors that govern healthy gut microbiota, such as diet, rearing conditions, and fish genotype (Schmidt et al., 2015; Sullam et al., 2012; Yan et al., 2016). In contrast, few studies have reported on the interplay among gut microbiota, fish immunity, and disease (Nie et al., 2017). In this commentary, we summarize current knowledge on the associations between fish immunity, gut microbiota, and invading intestinal pathogens. We also highlight recent progress in uncovering the ecological processes of fish diseases“

I agree - I'm sure there are perhaps 100's of things (some not even yet dreamt up) that affect fish immunity Reading these studies - I always try to figure out - are they talking about 'statistical significance' or 'clinical/applicable significance'. I will be the first to admit there is a lot to know about gut microbiome's.

The quote you mentioned from me above - suggest (somehow) - that the handling stress (in which they mentioned scale damage, etc) was equivalent to treatment for a disease or a QT procedure - I did not see any evidence for that?

 

[MnFish1]

I describe my method but I do not say that its the only one - it had worked for me in a mature aquarium - but I´m not sure that it will work everywhere. Yes - it is a personal method and personal experiences. However - my method does not incorporate any chemical treatment "just in case off". The only chemical I use is H2O2 in an oxydator. Especially if there is newcomers. But I wonder which form of open water micro animal that will survive here for a prolonged time?

Sincerely Lasse

Agreed @Lasse and I agree you're right - there may be fewer parasites in that tank compared to one with just a couple pieces of live rock. However, (I thought) your method was setting up a new aquarium - the 15 steps - with which I agree. (i.e. a new aquarium)

 

[Coffee Soundboard]

Jay,
Thank you for your contribution to the hobby. And your professionalism to your craft.

The average hobbiest does more harm than good by haphazardly attempting the scientific protocols you have outlined.

You really think so? What makes you think that?

Also, what happens if you are practicing ich management, and a large stress event occurs? Let's say a failed heater or something similar. Are these parasites that ARE in your display supposed to not take advantage of your fish in this weakened state? You're preaching keeping stress to a minimum and that will somehow magically cure parasites and such. It just doesn't make much sense to me. Toss a healthy, non-stressed fish into a tank with a critical mass of ich parasites and see what happens. I'd be curious to see the result.

 

[Subsea]

You really think so? What makes you think that?

Also, what happens if you are practicing ich management, and a large stress event occurs? Let's say a failed heater or something similar. Are these parasites that ARE in your display supposed to not take advantage of your fish in this weakened state? You're preaching keeping stress to a minimum and that will somehow magically cure parasites and such. It just doesn't make much sense to me. Toss a healthy, non-stressed fish into a tank with a critical mass of ich parasites and see what happens. I'd be curious to see the result.

interesting that you see a 20 year mature reef tank as “a critical mass of ich parasites”.

Ten years ago, I received a shipment of 8 juvenile hippo tangs from Divers Den. Each tang was in a separate bag. All showed obvious stress laying on side with rapid breathing. Some showed white ich spots. I made an executive decission and released all 8 bagged tangs into 15 year establish 75G tank. Within 2 days, all tangs stopped scratching their gills and within a week all white spots disappeared. It took me 3 months to remove 7 of the eight tangs.

So, I did the opposite scenario that you described.

This is that tank.

 

[Coffee Soundboard]

interesting that you see a 20 year mature reef tank as “a critical mass of ich parasites”.

Ten years ago, I received a shipment of 8 juvenile hippo tangs from Divers Den. Each tang was in a separate bag. All showed obvious stress laying on side with rapid breathing. Some showed white ich spots. I made an executive decission and released all 8 bagged tangs into 15 year establish 75G tank. Within 2 days, all tangs stopped scratching their gills and within a week all white spots disappeared. It took me 3 months to remove 7 of the eight tangs.

So, I did the opposite scenario that you described.

This is that tank.

How does your story of dumping a bunch of sick fish into an established DT address any of the points I brought up? It doesn’t. You sidestepped my talking points, as you’ve done to numerous other points in this thread.

 

[Subsea]

How does your story of dumping a bunch of sick fish into an established DT address any of the points I brought up? It doesn’t. You sidestepped my talking points, as you’ve done to numerous other points in this thread.

Obvious that you ignored that ich management worked for 100% of infected fish. I call that sidestepping.

So, instead of “quarantine & medication”, I exercised
“risk management“ by eliminating STRESS with 100% recovery. You asked to see the results and I posted a picture of the results. How is that DODGING?

 

[Subsea]

How does your story of dumping a bunch of sick fish into an established DT address any of the points I brought up? It doesn’t. You sidestepped my talking points, as you’ve done to numerous other points in this thread.

As I further ponder your points, it occurs to me that the scenario that you proposed further makes my point on the damage caused by stress:
take a healthy fish and introduce it to pathogens & stress simultaneously. Of course you expect it to succumb to parasite invasion. BOTH contributed to fatality.

For me, the least invasive protocol works best. After 53 years of Reefing, I have Zen.

 

[threebuoys]

Every day multiple hobbyists post about illnesses affecting their tanks. Sometimes the poster has seen one white spot on a fish and immediately assumes the worst. Other posters have been less observant and have waited until their fish are moribund, or already dead. All other posters fall between these two extremes. All ask two basic questions. What should I do now to save my fish? What should I do differently in the future to prevent this from happening again?

The debate about the efficacy and safety of copper treatment versus natural immunity has been going on since the hobby started. In many respects, the debate is no different that what has happened during the pandemic. One group says everyone should wear a mask and get a vaccination. The other group says let nature take its course and it’s a conspiracy. In the meanwhile, a millon people (and thousands of fish) die.

Yes, the best solution would be for everyone and every fish to have natural immunity. But that just never happens.

On day one, should a new hobbyist assume his tank has immunity? As he adds new fish to his tank should he “let nature take its course” and assume if a fish dies it was for the greater good? On day 1,000 should the experienced hobbyist assume his immune tank is all a new fish addition needs for survival and “let nature take its course” and assume if a fish dies it was for the greater good?

After years of careful care should the reefer find he has introduced parasites hitchhiking on coral frags into his well-manicured tank and removal of the infected fish can only be accomplished by either destroying the coral or scaring the fish to death?

No answer other than medication offers a higher probability path to survival for fish afflicted with Ich, velvet, brooklynella, or flukes. For me, QT is the most reasonable way to answer any of the above questions. My goal is to never knowingly allow these maladies to enter my DT. As most hobbyists, I have a significant investment in the fish in the DT. QT following our protocols is the most effective way to prevent future problems. I believe Jay’s experiences, and the experiences of a multitude of hobbyist’s have confirmed that medication and QT are effective. Seldom do we hear about those positive experiences, I believe because those hobbyists are confident in their methods and are tired of the debate.

 

[Subsea]

“The debate about the efficacy and safety of copper treatment versus natural immunity has been going on since the hobby started. In many respects, the debate is no different that what has happened during the pandemic. One group says everyone should wear a mask and get a vaccination. The other group says let nature take its course and it’s a conspiracy. In the meanwhile, a millon people (and thousands of fish) die.”

Because you brought up “millions of deaths to COVID”,
Many, many deaths to COVID were due to compromised immune system, but death certificates said covid.

I had COVID vaccine and I quarantined. I caught COVID and symptons were less than a cold. We’re my symptons reduced because of vaccine or my immune system: BOTH WORKED TOGETHER.

 

[MnFish1]

Going back to the 'title' of the thread. Can anyone post the detriments to a properly managed QT protocol?

I think it's well accepted that there is data out there that copper can potentially transiently lower immunity - so I guess that would be a detriment. Certainly any medications can have side effects - which are rare - that would be a detriment.

I personally (just my opinion) - do not completely buy the thought that taking a fish from the ocean, plopping them in a bag, shipping them to somewhere else - where they sit in clear tanks, only to be shipped to someone's home (often at temperatures, etc far away from their natural habitat during shipping) is not a high stress situation. In which case - if we were to 100 percent believe what some have said (that stress weakens the immune system significantly) - to me this mitigates FOR a QT protocol not against one.

I also do not buy the thought that keeping fish in small tanks with rocks is any better than keeping them in tanks with PVC hiding places. Both are 'stressful' as compared to their natural habitat. It is widely accepted in zoos that just making a 'cage' look like a natural environment (with glass instead of bars, live plants) does not prevent the neurotic stressed behavior seen in both barred and glassed institutions. Which is now, why, even in 'natural zoos', one sees orangutans playing with life preservers, etc etc.

 

[Nemo&Friends]

If there was a vaccine for fish, I would do it, because it would prevent my fish from getting sick and improve its immunity.
However stressing my fish and letting it macerate in poison ( all medecin are poisonous) for 45 days does not help it. It weakens it, and even possibly decrease its immunity. Medecin is useful and even great only if use when one it is needed.
I can understand/ agree with observation quarantine, and treating if needed, but absolutely do not agree to treat just in case.
I have never quarantined since I started over 10 years ago. However, I now have a tank with live rocks, snails and I grow macro algae in it. If I buy some new fish I might place them there to observe them first.
It is very difficult to never inadvertently introduce a foreign agent into a tank. So having non stressed, immune fish is a better alternative to my opinion.

 

[Lasse]

I can understand/ agree with observation quarantine, and treating if needed, but absolutely do not agree to treat just in case.

100 % on that!

I have never quarantined since I started over 10 years ago. However, I now have a tank with live rocks, snails and I grow macro algae in it. If I buy some new fish I might place them there to observe them first.

I handle newcomers in a similar way (I use my refugium as adaptions center)

the debate is no different that what has happened during the pandemic. One group says everyone should wear a mask and get a vaccination. The other group says let nature take its course and it’s a conspiracy. In the meanwhile, a millon people (and thousands of fish) die.

To compare a new virus (not known for human and their immune system) with parasites well known from the fish natural environment since thousand of years are not an adequate comparison. Furthermore - to use vaccine is to use the immune system as a defence. Is not the vaccine that kills the virus - its our immune system that have been activated by the vaccine in a safe way.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[MnFish1]

If there was a vaccine for fish, I would do it, because it would prevent my fish from getting sick and improve its immunity.
However stressing my fish and letting it macerate in poison ( all medecin are poisonous) for 45 days does not help it. It weakens it, and even possibly decrease its immunity. Medecin is useful and even great only if use when one it is needed.
I can understand/ agree with observation quarantine, and treating if needed, but absolutely do not agree to treat just in case.
I have never quarantined since I started over 10 years ago. However, I now have a tank with live rocks, snails and I grow macro algae in it. If I buy some new fish I might place them there to observe them first.
It is very difficult to never inadvertently introduce a foreign agent into a tank. So having non stressed, immune fish is a better alternative to my opinion.

I think you are vastly misguided. in saying (all medicine is poisons) - In reality - the realization that bacteria, etc cause disease - Immunity in fish lasts perhaps 6 months - 1 year. Your comment that you w0uld vaccinate your fish because it would prevent anything seems odd - it would not - it may help prevent problems - but no vaccination is 100%. Your comment in the last paragraph makes sense. The level of pathogen is likely very small

 

[threebuoys]

I agree that immunity would be the best solution. I disagree that it can be easily achieved.

I repeat my questions:

On day one, should a new hobbyist assume his tank has immunity? As he adds new fish to his tank should he “let nature take its course” and assume if a fish dies it was for the greater good? On day 1,000 should the experienced hobbyist assume his immune tank is all a new fish addition needs for survival and “let nature take its course” and assume if a fish dies it was for the greater good?

 

[Subsea]

@threebuoys
I repeat my questions:

Your question is loaded with your projection/bias that we need to medicate. Talk to @PaulB about your sceanario. He did it.

I did it also. As a project manager, risk management is integral in system design. I choose less invasive path.. Considering this tank is 25 years mature and > 10 years since seeing ich, I was successful.

I don’t know that fish in this tank are ich immune. I don’t plan to introduce diseased fish to find out.

Think about comparing my natural system immunity with Jays $25 million dollar facility at one decade with no disease outbreaks. If fish pathogens enter these two systems, neither system fish will have an immunity to the parasite. Why should I do all the hard work required by your medication protocol and not have immunity to ich.

 

[MnFish1]

@threebuoys
I repeat my questions:

Your question is loaded with your projection/bias that we need to medicate. Talk to @PaulB about your sceanario. He did it.

In all honesty - Not going down the Paul wormhole. He is 1 out of 100,000 reefers - thus I place little weight on his opinion. If it was so easy there would be 10,000 more people saying yes - I did this - and wow it worked. This is no disparagement of Paul - just a comment. In any case - why don't you just answer his questions

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I’m just going to toss this out there: if medications are toxic/bad and quarantine is stressful, why does EVERY major public aquarium have a comprehensive, proactive quarantine process? Are they all wrong/misguided? Hardly - they do it because it is “best practice”. The AZA actually requires it to meet accreditation requirements.

The quarantine protocol that I promote here is derived from my public aquarium work. I’d say it is about middle of the road in terms of complexity, and slightly modified for home use.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

I’m just going to toss this out there: if medications are toxic/bad and quarantine is stressful, why does EVERY major public aquarium have a comprehensive, proactive quarantine process? Are they all wrong/misguided? Hardly - they do it because it is “best practice”. The AZA actually requires it to meet accreditation requirements.

The quarantine protocol that I promote here is derived from my public aquarium work. I’d say it is about middle of the road in terms of complexity, and slightly modified for home use.

Jay

Exactly