A sideline discussion on Copper and overall benefits/detriments of prophylactic treatment in QT

[MnFish1]

I do not know that - the only thing I know is when I was helping a friend with direct imports of saltwater fish - we never, ever use prophylactic treatment. The few times when we get a disease (mostly white spot) they was treated separately with copper. we are talking about around 20 - 30,000 fish during a 18 years period. My friend was known to have among the best fishes in our area (southern Sweden)

The largest importer in Sweden of fresh water ornamental fish does not either use prophylactic treatment at that time (now - I do not know)


For me vaccine is not an prophylactic treatment - and in the other case you mentioned - there was (is) indications of a disease or pathogen. Its the same for me - I know that in all my stomach surgeries - I have got Metronidazole as prophylactic agent against infection of the stomach lining - and I thankful that all my use of this compound in my aquariums back in the 70 - 80 ties not had lead to a resistant gut flora. But the interesting thing is that it needs to be an indication of a disease (or pathogen)

There is another good example of vaccine - that for the measles. It was nearly eradicated here in Sweden 20 years ago but because of lower vaccination rate among immigrants and because of the anti-vaccine movement we have rare outbreaks now and than

Sincerely Lasse

Thanks!!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

About to note words - I have never state that public aquariums not using quarantine processes - I have state that not all use chemical prophylactic quarantine process - that´s a huge difference - and you know that.


Which copper test do you use?

And which total ammonia test can measure bound ammine groups? Interesting to know - because you say that the amine/copper compound is stable - which means that there can not be any free NH3/NH4 to measure or..........



Scientific references of this?

And another question - why is not this method mentioned in any publication that I have read concerning parasite treatments in fish farms - including recirculated fish farms. Such a method - As you declare - safe for fish in prolonged treatment, no sublethal damage and no copper accumulation in human food - this is worth a fortune in the recirculation fish farm industry and should be in widely use if it exist. I can´t find any references to amine/copper complex in the scientific literature I can access. Chelated products - yes - but they are shown to bioaccumulate copper in the fish - sometimes more than ionic copper, When I see statement like yours - I always try to find references that either confirms or reject the statement. If it confirm the statement - I have learn something new - if it reject the statement - then I protest and ask for more information


Surly - maybe one side of the coin


I can only guess here but in other treads it has been mentioned that many importers and LFS in the US use low amount of copper in their system to prevent disease outbreak. The outbreak happens instead when the fish meet its new environment with a new micro fauna. To constant use low concentrations of copper in their system has been rare in Europe - even if we are closer to the US situation today. If this is true - which I do not know - it means that a new prophylactic treatment may be very unfortunate. But this is only my thoughts - I can´t prove it

What I know from the past is that many curators (at that time) in public aquariums advocate for this method (low copper concentration in the water) in fish only system as a way of handle disease outbreak and get algae free aquariums and it was copied by the LFS back in the times.

Sincerely Lasse

I’m going to tap out on you here - I answered your questions and you just come back with more questions/challenges. That is exhausting, not to mention a bit irritating.

I need to get back to helping people with their sick fish…

Jay

 

[KrisReef]

Actually - I'm going to redirect what you said a bit. For example for a fish to get from the Red Sea to Los Angeles - takes a much more stressful (longer) route than a fish going from the Red Sea to Munich or Stockholm. If stress is an issue for fish - I guess I would assume that a 17 hour flight vs a 5 hour flight would be more stressful. Thus I asked the question.

Yes, I hate long flights but it's the only way to get to the Carribean or the South Pacific, both locations are wonderful for destressification once I land and sleep and get to the coconut bar for breakfast!
I pressume a fish flight is unnerving for fishes who likely have better pressure sensory existance. Flying from the tropics to lower or higher points on the earth when the land after high altitude, dark cabin sensory depravation experiences the boxes open and light pours in while inspectors toss the bags around like they were filled with dog excrement (the typical contents in modern society for small plastic bags that don't contain contraband). Inside the fish cannot be relaxed in such a situation, unless they are close to death or already rotting.

It is then that the Hole Sellers (SIC) release these fishes into their QT/observation tanks (right?) where they are fed caviar and any who look sick get seperated and sent to the yellow or blue tank at the end of the row and mixed in a 55 gallon tank with 20-200 other fishes with skin issues.

Sorry, that was the 1990's and what is happening today I to admit is not fair for me to speculate. I do know that some (many?) wholesalers advertise that they observe and "treat" incoming fish. Great practice to proclaim but the term "Treat" or "QT" is hard to discover a definition from the outside as the Whole Sailors know that they don't want to admit that their fish may have the clap or some other disease. Presumably they use copper. One LFS that I am familiar with has treatment tanks at the end of their rows and I have to admit that they are doing much better with their fish than was common 30 years ago. Lots of them seem to be doing fairly well and recoverying and that is probably not because of fisheries research but rather hobbist imports and wholesalers and LFS keepers application of information passed around on sites like Reef2Reef during this time period.

Don't forget to hand release your new fish and tell them that they are not for eating, just to look at.

 

[ReefJonas]

Just to mention - when people say "copper" there are different types. Amine-based copper products do not kill bacteria in any appreciable amount, and the fish's immune system is not harmed. Ionic copper can harm more bacteria (25% by my estimation), and can be a direct toxin to fish.

I've never heard of any evidence that beneficial gut microbes have any benefit in controlling external parasitic diseases.

Jay

Hi, on that matter I totally agree. Good bacteria has 0% effect on bad ones. It doesn’t work in that way. If you have an infection, you can NEVER treat that with good bacteria. Its has zero effect. Microbes must be killed by antimicrobial substance, and there is 2 main ways: Kill the bacterial metabolism (classical antibiotics) OR kill the cell, (typical oxidizing products and disinfectants). So yes, I agree , gut microbes can never treat an individ with an infectious disease of any kind. My main occupation is doctor/surgeon, so I have some knowledge about this

Will read this thread more deeply tonight, very interesting thread.,

Jonas Roman

 

[MnFish1]

Hi, on that matter I totally agree. Good bacteria has 0% effect on bad ones. It doesn’t work in that way. If you have an infection, you can NEVER treat that with good bacteria. Its has zero effect. Microbes must be killed by antimicrobial substance, and there is 2 main ways: Kill the bacterial metabolism (classical antibiotics) OR kill the cell, (typical oxidizing products and disinfectants). So yes, I agree , gut microbes can never treat an individ with an infectious disease of any kind. My main occupation is doctor/surgeon, so I have some knowledge about this

Will read this thread more deeply tonight, very interesting thread.,

Jonas Roman

Generally agree - however, supplements with 'good bacteria' (i.e dietary not in the water) - may help prevent colonization of 'internal parasites' - there are many papers that intestinal infections can be 'cured' with 'good bacteria' (i.e. clostridium difficile). However, I also think that there is not a lot of evidence that this works in fish.

To make it even more complicated - some bacteria produce 'antibiotics' - which can further muddy the issue.

 

[exnisstech]

and I'm not sure why so many people here are against it - it's like the people against covid vaccines.

I probably should just keep my mouth shut but comments like this just annoy me a bit. I'm not trying to start a vac antivac argument and I'm not intelligent enough to argue with most of you folks here anyway, but you ask so I'll tell you why one person is against it. Some of us have little to no confidence in our governments ability or even willingness to do what is in the best interest of the people. Greed and profits drive almost everything including vaccine production. Vaccines that normally take years to perfect were rushed through labs in record times and profits soared for drug companies. Fortunately we still have some choices in the US and one is not to inject something into my body just because someone tells me I should. At least now you now why some of us refuse covid vaccine, it's a total lack of trust.
Please continue the current discussion.

 

[MnFish1]

I probably should just keep my mouth shut but comments like this just annoy me a bit. I'm not trying to start a vac antivac argument and I'm not intelligent enough to argue with most of you folks here anyway, but you ask so I'll tell you why one person is against it. Some of us have little to no confidence in our governments ability or even willingness to do what is in the best interest of the people. Greed and profits drive almost everything including vaccine production. Vaccines that normally take years to perfect were rushed through labs in record times and profits soared for drug companies. Fortunately we still have some choices in the US and one is not to inject something into my body just because someone tells me I should. At least now you now why some of us refuse covid vaccine, it's a total lack of trust.
Please continue the current discussion.

I agree with you - And like I said - it's the same for QT - people don't trust it (or they think the risks vs benefits of QT is riskier with QT than without). I wasn't trying to criticize either side. Merely making the point that the 2 arguments are similar. And - for the record - I see both sides of both issues.

There can be complications with QT, and there can be complications without QT. Same as with the vaccine. In the end - seems like people should look at the evidence for and against - and decide for themselves. Back to the QT issue - based on what I've read - its about 50-70% of people that QT at all (on R2R), and again - according to polls a much lower percentage of people that follow through with an adequate protocol - yet many claim success.

 

[ReefJonas]

Generally agree - however, supplements with 'good bacteria' (i.e dietary not in the water) - may help prevent colonization of 'internal parasites' - there are many papers that intestinal infections can be 'cured' with 'good bacteria' (i.e. clostridium difficile). However, I also think that there is not a lot of evidence that this works in fish.

To make it even more complicated - some bacteria produce 'antibiotics' - which can further muddy the issue.

yes, as a profylax good bacteria definitely have a beneficial effect.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi, on that matter I totally agree. Good bacteria has 0% effect on bad ones. It doesn’t work in that way. If you have an infection, you can NEVER treat that with good bacteria. Its has zero effect. Microbes must be killed by antimicrobial substance, and there is 2 main ways: Kill the bacterial metabolism (classical antibiotics) OR kill the cell, (typical oxidizing products and disinfectants). So yes, I agree , gut microbes can never treat an individ with an infectious disease of any kind. My main occupation is doctor/surgeon, so I have some knowledge about this

Will read this thread more deeply tonight, very interesting thread.,

Jonas Roman

The only caveat I would add in this instance - externally (not in the gut!), with aquariums, there is something to be said about having a "mature microbiome" in the aquarium. This is probably different than in cases of bacterial infections in mammals, as they are not so directly connected to their physical environment.

Most of the bacteria that infect fish externally, are ubiquitous, unlike the parasites we see, these bacteria can be isolated from virtually every aquarium - Pseudomonas and Aeromonas sp. for example. In a mature tank, there are so many bacteria and protozoans that eat bacteria, that things tend to balance out, with no species really getting the upper hand. Is there a corollary with that in human medicine? I'm thinking things like a fungal plaque that can grow after antibiotics kill off part of the normal microbiome?

Jay

 

[Paul B]

1970!, Was salt even invented yet? LOL. I could not imagine doing this back then.

It certainly was. It started in 1971 in New York but Germany started a little earlier. I was practically standing on the dock when the first Blue Devils were imported and I bought them.

That tank is still running.

 

[Cichlid Dad]

It certainly was. It started in 1971 in New York but Germany started a little earlier. I was practically standing on the dock when the first Blue Devils were imported and I bought them.

That tank is still running.

I love it!

 

[MnFish1]

I believe pet stores had simple fish like clowns, etc in the 50's and 60's according to my father. I think it was more popular on the coasts where natural water was available

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I believe pet stores had simple fish like clowns, etc in the 50's and 60's according to my father. I think it was more popular on the coasts where natural water was available

I remember walking to grade school, past a house that had a blue damsel in an tank on the window sill, and marveling at its bright blue coloration - circa 1967. I think that was the one factor that got me into marine aquariums!

Jay

 

[Spicoli]

I'm glad the argument outbreak seems to have subsided, and I made it to the end of this thread. Thanks to all for what I believe is sincere feedback, but it got circular there for a bit.

After all that was said, I'm going to QT for 30 days with copper. I also have Chloroquine, but that has failed me in the past and let bugs get through, as there is not test for it that I can afford.

 

[Paul B]

You realize you have put yourself in the camp with PaulB.

I see my name mentioned all over this thread but I disagree with so much here that my head is spinning and it hurts when it stops.

IMO everyone here is kind of right and wrong. kind of, (Including me) I have been keeping fish since 1953 or so and have spent about 300 hours underwater swimming and partying with them, not only as a tourist that dives in a group with a guide. I have my own equipment, boat and ocean. So I accidently learned a few things from the fish themselves way before aquarium books, forums, computers or Taylor Swift.

I realize it sounds counter productive to allow parasites to live with our fish but every fish in the sea has them and I never seen a frown on their faces. I think it's silly to kill parasites because they are the only thing keeping fish immune to parasites.

That being said, the vast majority of hobbyists don't keep their tanks in such a way that they can be immune. It is much more than using or not using copper and feeding what people "think" is good food. In almost all cases it is not "good food". If you feed 100% of your food from an LFS, or it is dry food it is "Probably" not good food in regard to immunity. It certainly is healthy but will not (in most cases) have the correct gut bacteria and as was said many times in this thread that is IMO the biggest threat to immunity so if the "correct" food is not fed, you should always quarantine.

Probiotics are great, I take them myself but will do little for fish immunity. That is only good bacteria and we and fish also need pathogens to stay healthy. (If you don't believe me or you have a healthy tank older than mine, shoot me. )

If your tank doesn't have some age on it (years not months) and if you don't provide "proper" hiding "places" (plural) where fish can not see you and can stay out of sight in a "tight" cave or hole, you need to quarantine.

If your rocks do not have a nice growth of "mulm" on them....quarantine.
As for 100% of public aquariums quarantining all their livestock and if they are doing it wrong, Yes, I feel they are. Again, shoot me. (public aquariums are 100% not like home aquariums)

Proof is not just what some obscure scientist who probably doesn't have an old, healthy tank thinks.
I disagreed with almost everything those researchers said about parasites in the 70s.
(Burgess) They did everything in a lab which means almost nothing in the real world unless you want to keep parasites as pets. The life cycle of parasites means nothing if it is the parasites themselves that are keeping the fish healthy. Maybe we should strive to having healthy parasites.

I don't think either one of those guys kept a real tank with real conditions but I don't know them personally.

Many of us get shots for polio, measles, chicken pox and Covid. Why do we purposely put into our bodies weak pathogens? I think we know.

If we have a new tank, by all means, quarantine because new tanks are not healthy and won't be for a while especially if fake water and dry rocks are used. Forgetaboutit.

But after we learn how to get and keep our fish in a state of health as they were in the sea, quarantine or medication is IMO counter productive which is why there are no old fully quarantined tanks that I have ever found. (10 years is not old and that is almost the life span of a hermit crab)

These guys lived about 12 years.



I can't show proof, I have no PHD (I had a real job and there was that war thing.) But I do have probably the oldest tank here by far and it has never been medicated, quarantined or anything else (since about 1975 or so)
I add fish all the time as I give them away if they get to big or die of old age as most of them do. OK, I don't give away dead fish.

All healthy fish will spawn and that is a sign of excellent health as only healthy fish will spawn. Many fish of course will not spawn in a tank due to conditions such as size or depth but almost all the bottom dwellers will spawn.

If they don't, they are not healthy.


Can anyone show me a "home" tank that is fully quarantined, never had any diseases, fish are healthy and spawning and "only" dying of old age or jumping out? That tank needs to be at least 15 or 20 years old as that is the life span of many of our fish but I have a couple of clownfish over 30 years old.

The criteria of a successful tank "in my mind" is where fish live out their normal lifespan, maybe spawn and never get sick. (with a communicable disease)

Remember I never said quarantine or medication is bad. I feel all Noobs and all tanks that are not set up to keep the fish stress free or old enough and the "correct" food is not fed with the correct aquascape, you definitely need to quarantine as your fish will depend on medication to stay healthy instead of their natural immunity that they came with.

Shoot me, I'm old anyway.

 

[MnFish1]

Probiotics are great, I take them myself but will do little for fish immunity. That is only good bacteria and we and fish also need pathogens to stay healthy. (If you don't believe me or you have a healthy tank older than mine, shoot me. )

You have no proof whether probiotics for fish will help or not. You have no evidence that fish need exposure to pathogens to remain healthy

If your tank doesn't have some age on it (years not months) and if you don't provide "proper" hiding "places" (plural) where fish can not see you and can stay out of sight in a "tight" cave or hole, you need to quarantine.

???????

If your rocks do not have a nice growth of "mulm" on them....quarantine.
As for 100% of public aquariums quarantining all their livestock and if they are doing it wrong, Yes, I feel they are. Again, shoot me. (public aquariums are 100% not like home aquariums)

This makes no sense - why would mulm make a difference? You are kind of over dramatizing?

All healthy fish will spawn and that is a sign of excellent health as only healthy fish will spawn. Many fish of course will not spawn in a tank due to conditions such as size or depth but almost all the bottom dwellers will spawn.

Disagree. Most fish will spawn if there is a male and female. the issue here is that most people keep one fish. Thus - they will not spawn (though some females will lay eggs without a male0

Can anyone show me a "home" tank that is fully quarantined, never had any diseases, fish are healthy and spawning and "only" dying of old age or jumping out? That tank needs to be at least 15 or 20 years old as that is the life span of many of our fish but I have a couple of clownfish over 30 years old.

Mine

The criteria of a successful tank "in my mind" is where fish live out their normal lifespan, maybe spawn and never get sick. (with a communicable disease)

you (nor i) know the normal lifespan of most fish - tangs - live 40 + years

 

[Paul B]

Thats nice. Have a nice day.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You have no proof whether probiotics for fish will help or not. You have no evidence that fish need exposure to pathogens to remain healthy

???????

This makes no sense - why would mulm make a difference? You are kind of over dramatizing?

Disagree. Most fish will spawn if there is a male and female. the issue here is that most people keep one fish. Thus - they will not spawn (though some females will lay eggs without a male0


Mine


you (nor i) know the normal lifespan of most fish - tangs - live 40 + years

I agree, public aquariums have the potential to be the BEST at fish husbandry. They have access to veterinarians and histopathology, as well as the funds to support the best aquarium systems. What they do is something to be emulated.

Exposure to pathogens only builds partial, temporary immunity. As you know, I use the dog and tick example - exposure to ticks only makes a worse infection for dogs, not any sort of conferred immunity. Multicellular fish parasites are the same.

"Mulm" is kind of a basic term, but a robust microbiome does help keep a system stable. It does not erase all disease issues, but it is the cornerstone of trying to "manage" diseases in-situ. It doesn't always work though.

Jay

 

[Paul B]

Good Morning and Happy Thanksgiving Jay. I appreciate your input. The dog analogy is interesting but as you know, a dog is a mammal with skin like ours and not a semipermeable epidermis like a fish. Fish are covered in slime and that slime is filled with anti-parasitic substances (I did post that link a few times) A fishes skin filled with those substances would repel a "tick" if a tick were a natural predator of fish as fish have been doing this a long time.

Fish in the sea are generally very healthy (and young) and have absolutely no problems with parasites. In my 50 years of SCUBA I personally have never seen an ich parasite killing anything. I add fish all the time as the older ones die of I give them away and I don't care how much ich I see on a new fish because I keep my fish in a state of health as they were in the sea while eating similar foods as they did in the sea and my fish never get an ich, velvet or Urenema (whatever that is ) infection.

But for a study, I invite you to bring any fish you like to my home (a small compatible fish) with any disease of your choice and put it in my tank. I think that will be a good indication if fish in a un quarantined tank are immune. If my tank crashes, I will go on to a different hobby, maybe breeding bull frogs or ball room dancing.

Then of course I will take any fish that haven't died yet and put them in a volunteers quarantined tank and see what happens. I think that would be a good and fair test. Do you agree?

I get those types of fish all the time for very cheap or free and I have no concerns about them even though those fish, depending on the severity of their affliction may die.

I believe what I say and I am willing to prove it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Good Morning and Happy Thanksgiving Jay. I appreciate your input. The dog analogy is interesting but as you know, a dog is a mammal with skin like ours and not a semipermeable epidermis like a fish. Fish are covered in slime and that slime is filled with anti-parasitic substances (I did post that link a few times) A fishes skin filled with those substances would repel a "tick" if a tick were a natural predator of fish as fish have been doing this a long time.

Fish in the sea are generally very healthy (and young) and have absolutely no problems with parasites. In my 50 years of SCUBA I personally have never seen an ich parasite killing anything. I add fish all the time as the older ones die of I give them away and I don't care how much ich I see on a new fish because I keep my fish in a state of health as they were in the sea while eating similar foods as they did in the sea and my fish never get an ich, velvet or Urenema (whatever that is ) infection.

But for a study, I invite you to bring any fish you like to my home (a small compatible fish) with any disease of your choice and put it in my tank. I think that will be a good indication if fish in a un quarantined tank are immune. If my tank crashes, I will go on to a different hobby, maybe breeding bull frogs or ball room dancing.

Then of course I will take any fish that haven't died yet and put them in a volunteers quarantined tank and see what happens. I think that would be a good and fair test. Do you agree?

I get those types of fish all the time for very cheap or free and I have no concerns about them even though those fish, depending on the severity of their affliction may die.

I believe what I say and I am willing to prove it.

Actually, the type of skin involved has nothing to do with external metazoan parasites, as dog or cat, frog or fish, these parasites pierce the skin and get bodily fluids directly.

Jay