Now just for @Randy Holmes-Farley to pipe up and we have a full house, according to @brandon429
Ammonia Pegged at 8.0 After 50% Water Change, Nitrate 10ppm, What's is happening!
- Thread starter bstone026
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Miami Reef
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bstone026
Active Member
Well Chewy ships alot faster tan amazon I have the fritz the instant ocean and I am begining now to drain as much as I can. One thing I will do after words is see what my broken inaccurate API test tells me my ammonia is lol. I have come up with an alternate theory about why my ammonia is so high and why 2 canisters full of matrix that have never given me any ammonia issues. Here me out when any type of bio mass breaks down you end up with an ammonia increase. Here me out about 40% percent of those nice looking algae plants have been there a few months..Now the other 60% are about 3 to 4 weeks old, and as you may know with algae you have to bury a bit in the sand to help start roots and hold them in place, but guess what else ends up getting buried algae leaves which decompose. I am not sure if it is enough to through the algae out of wack. I figured since the 1st bunch the 40% did fine the second bunch would be fine to. But compounded with a power outage and a weakend bio filter I thought it was worth mentioning. All right now I got to get my hands dirty and get this tank a water upgrade.
I’m assuming the OP is vigorously mixing saltwater
Algae does strange stuff to a tank. It tends to make everything heterotrophic and exudes chemicals that may or maybe not beneficial to its inhabitants. I spent 2 years researching (if researching is googling) about algal impacts and concluded I would eliminate all traces (except the inevitable film algae) in my new tank. Loads of folks run tanks with algae filters etc but in my view there are simpler ways to export. This thread was started when I was excited about algae, it developed into doubt and frustration;
howdy from the uk - day one
thought i would chip in and let you comment on my effort so far. Backgroung of display- 5 x 2 x 2 with 240 ltr sump containing skimmer (massively inefficient), DSB in display (silica play sand), approx 100 kgs live rock. Most corals are 7 years old and all fish but 2 of the tangs, are of...
algaescrubber.net
Biglew11
Valuable Member
To me this sounds absolutely plausible. The bio mass of the plants coupled with possible bio mass in the canisters from lack of oxygen during the power outage. Despite the other camp saying you can't possibly have amonia in a cycled tank.
I think you have the right plan of attack. If you haven't yet I would clean the canister filters really well and then add your bacteria after water change. Some say adding the bacteria after tank is cycled is a waste of money, but it doesn't hurt anything so I say attack the problem from all angles at once.
Spare time
10K Club member
That is what I was going to say. You can double check via a nitrite test kit. If that is at 0, or if another test kit shows 0, then don't worry. Nitrite is processed slower, so if something happened, you would also see a lot of nitrite I don't think fish could even survive that level of ammonia for any period of time lol
You need to read the whole thread, especially the bits I posted about lethality. Oh, the wonders of the inter web.
Spare time
10K Club member
Considering it was maxed out, it could have been greater than 8ppm. I saw DanP's response, but I think I missed the one you are referring to. However, my point still holds that a nitrite test would resolve this.
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Right Dan, that's the hardest part to figure - how to generate that much ammonia spike.
8ppm ammonia in a 50 gallon tank requires minimum, ~11grams of protein, so 20 grams of my fish flake, or ~50 grams of shrimp. This is kind of a lot.
I guess multiple things across the tank in various places could have bit the dust, dead macroalgae can contribute some. Under some conditions like low O2, bacteria can break down nearly all of the protein to ammonia, as they just burn the carbon part of the protein for energy.
So a large cryptic organism, a bunch of biofilm and dead buried algae maybe, but seems hard to find that much killable material without large ammonia input into the system somehow.
Nitrite ? Lol
bstone026
Active Member
Okay I got a break while my RO system catches up only holds 40G in reserve. The tank is about 2/3 filled with 1/4 at the bottom that remained to keep the fish swimming. I took a preliminary ammonia test, now remember this is a very test on a tank thats not yet filled. Ammonia is currently sitting at 3.0 to 4.0ppm and holding, which leads me to believe it may have been higher than 8.0ppm. Still got 15G of Ro water to add. But I can foresee multiple partial water changes in my future. On a positive note my fish are actually acting like fish again and not just laying in the sand or hovering at the top. Of coarse we all know this was absolutely not an ammonia problem, it was a disease or parasite that attacked my tank...
One thing I can figure out why was the group split on defiantly not Ammonia and Sure looks like Ammonia?
After all the details I provided and came up with I was and now assured Ammonia played a huge part in this,
I think it's because I am one of the rare folks that still uses canister filtration for saltwater, it has it's pros and cons like everything else. But canister have a weak spot and that is if the flow is off for too long things start going bad
One thing I can figure out why was the group split on defiantly not Ammonia and Sure looks like Ammonia?
After all the details I provided and came up with I was and now assured Ammonia played a huge part in this,
I think it's because I am one of the rare folks that still uses canister filtration for saltwater, it has it's pros and cons like everything else. But canister have a weak spot and that is if the flow is off for too long things start going bad
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I’m noticing that of the links provided
none show any precedent for a nine month old reef losing and sustaining a lost biofilter every day for weeks.
its never been documented or written about before in reefing / is what I take from lack of documentation on the matter
piecemeal documentation has not impressed so far. You guys have loose university links to prove this cycle is broken, I have my links of reef tanks who can do a 100% water change on the date we say their tank is ready and proceed to carry all their fish and be accountable by interview months after the call. I feel that’s proof of no ammonia issues, even though we don’t collect api ammonia passed tests as proof in my threads. I feel fish will be dying if we are on a continuum of toxicity as claimed here, yet none ever do. For three years straight in the thread linked prior, no start date losses, and for eight years straight in the microbiology of cycling thread. Ten years worth of data patterns, no losses, must be all luck not any type of a pattern has been found.
lysmata shrimp always live fine in these claimed challenge tanks, a noted pattern we get from working with reefs and not random university links that aren’t about reef tanks suddenly losing nitrification ability (not found stated, in any link prior pages)
I bet T or Dan can’t replicate this phenomena in a reef stacked in rocks at month nine, using testing in the controlled manner in which they do
let’s see a directed analysis of this actual claim.
do mythbusters on it: what conditions do we have to provide / a rotting two pound langostino for example/ to make a reef tank stacked full of rocks show ammonia compliance for months, then get undone and stay that way. Let’s see documentation that matches this claim.
show the test reef stacked to the hilt in reef rocks and plenty of dilution, not a matchbox sized test vessel, clearly controlling ammonia enough to carry a whole reef for months.
then do X to it to break the cycle, and have it sustain as broken for two weeks. Can’t be done is the bet - without something so pronounced itd never take ten pages of guessing and making up stuff to locate the cause.
none show any precedent for a nine month old reef losing and sustaining a lost biofilter every day for weeks.
its never been documented or written about before in reefing / is what I take from lack of documentation on the matter
piecemeal documentation has not impressed so far. You guys have loose university links to prove this cycle is broken, I have my links of reef tanks who can do a 100% water change on the date we say their tank is ready and proceed to carry all their fish and be accountable by interview months after the call. I feel that’s proof of no ammonia issues, even though we don’t collect api ammonia passed tests as proof in my threads. I feel fish will be dying if we are on a continuum of toxicity as claimed here, yet none ever do. For three years straight in the thread linked prior, no start date losses, and for eight years straight in the microbiology of cycling thread. Ten years worth of data patterns, no losses, must be all luck not any type of a pattern has been found.
lysmata shrimp always live fine in these claimed challenge tanks, a noted pattern we get from working with reefs and not random university links that aren’t about reef tanks suddenly losing nitrification ability (not found stated, in any link prior pages)
I bet T or Dan can’t replicate this phenomena in a reef stacked in rocks at month nine, using testing in the controlled manner in which they do
let’s see a directed analysis of this actual claim.
do mythbusters on it: what conditions do we have to provide / a rotting two pound langostino for example/ to make a reef tank stacked full of rocks show ammonia compliance for months, then get undone and stay that way. Let’s see documentation that matches this claim.
show the test reef stacked to the hilt in reef rocks and plenty of dilution, not a matchbox sized test vessel, clearly controlling ammonia enough to carry a whole reef for months.
then do X to it to break the cycle, and have it sustain as broken for two weeks. Can’t be done is the bet - without something so pronounced itd never take ten pages of guessing and making up stuff to locate the cause.
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Post an updated full tank shot today so we can see the reef running normally again. I haven’t seen anything actually die here unless I’m wrong, w have to go re read
if I’m not wrong, we are at page ten here with no losses in a reef tank that looks great in pics, but somehow has lost zero control over ammonia
so that means this tank can’t control ammonia at all, but for ten days both the cause of this spike yet to be determined remains and the collective metabolic waste from daily running has not compounded to result in one single loss for the entire tank
the macro details here stand out more to me than the api readings for sure.
if I’m not wrong, we are at page ten here with no losses in a reef tank that looks great in pics, but somehow has lost zero control over ammonia
so that means this tank can’t control ammonia at all, but for ten days both the cause of this spike yet to be determined remains and the collective metabolic waste from daily running has not compounded to result in one single loss for the entire tank
the macro details here stand out more to me than the api readings for sure.
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@Garf
only a massive obvious death in the tank left to rot will sustain ammonia above what the tank can command
This isn’t a fish-in cycle thread, it’s a nine month old reef. Show seneye data of a nine month old reef not controlling ammonia
you can’t
nobody here can show a nine month old reef losing ammonia control before this thread
I know a post located in our seneye misread study thread where an entire tang was left to rot in a display and the nh3 never moved off normal measures, that’s the real ability of our currents + surface area when a decent test kit is used.
if there was one goby missing in this reef you’d all claim that to be the cause/found/gavel down case closed.
You never showed us Garf where in your online reef experience you’ve seen, logged, or interacted with + fixed a nine month fully stocked display reef that lost its cycle.
nobody has shown that here. We won’t be seeing that proof here even by page 20 of this reef looking fine every day.
only a massive obvious death in the tank left to rot will sustain ammonia above what the tank can command
This isn’t a fish-in cycle thread, it’s a nine month old reef. Show seneye data of a nine month old reef not controlling ammonia
you can’t
nobody here can show a nine month old reef losing ammonia control before this thread
I know a post located in our seneye misread study thread where an entire tang was left to rot in a display and the nh3 never moved off normal measures, that’s the real ability of our currents + surface area when a decent test kit is used.
if there was one goby missing in this reef you’d all claim that to be the cause/found/gavel down case closed.
You never showed us Garf where in your online reef experience you’ve seen, logged, or interacted with + fixed a nine month fully stocked display reef that lost its cycle.
nobody has shown that here. We won’t be seeing that proof here even by page 20 of this reef looking fine every day.
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why didn’t Randy warn us in his ammonia article that our reef’s nitrification abilities might just stop working one day in the future?
because it does not happen. look at how the posts title leads the troubleshooting again, we pattern study that too.
first it was a water change that for sure caused this (threads title)
When we worked a few pages and proved that couldn’t happen, because there’s no storage zone for free ammonia to be released in a reef tank via water changes, we then changed to a power outage for sure caused this
causatives will just change over time to match anything reported as a test reading. If the fish are bad it’s free ammonia and nothing in Jays disease forum can apply, if the fish are good then remedying free ammonia did it.
because it does not happen. look at how the posts title leads the troubleshooting again, we pattern study that too.
first it was a water change that for sure caused this (threads title)
When we worked a few pages and proved that couldn’t happen, because there’s no storage zone for free ammonia to be released in a reef tank via water changes, we then changed to a power outage for sure caused this
causatives will just change over time to match anything reported as a test reading. If the fish are bad it’s free ammonia and nothing in Jays disease forum can apply, if the fish are good then remedying free ammonia did it.
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Lol, you are not listening to the facts, there’s a shocker. Where’s your hospitality badge gone?
Have we seen on the boards power outages affecting reef tanks/ canister filters when turned back on? For sure. a canister coming back on after a power outage killed a freshwater setup I had, I’ve posted about the risk before in canister filter discussions. I forgot to clean it out at all during the entire outage, and it was due for cleaning before the outage
we see clear, marked loss that a picture reveals, with no testing needed, when a fouled canister filter outputs so much daily ammonia a reef tank can’t handle it.
*notice the OP never mentions smell emanating from anywhere
never mentions smell, from an ammonia source pumping above 5ppm every day from a concentrated source? Nice and convenient.
we do not see a perfectly running reef, with only an api test causing ammonia fear, as proof of a broken cycle there’s 20 years of that already documented online.
I don’t believe for one second Dan or T think the display bac are dead. They are saying an input source exists so powerful as to overcome what current + surface area does in a reef tank
so just walk over to the canister, turn it off, run an ammonia test from the water inside the claimed rotted container and post the vial so we can see the color.
then one today on the display, post the vial so we can see it.
then one more fresh updated tank picture.
what’s not on file in forums: keeping a reef at 8ppm nh4 (calibrated seneye logs) for over a week straight with no symptoms
nobody including Dan or T has ever logged ammonia noncontrol prior to a fish kill and not caused by an error like dosing copper into a display in a reef tank, at month nine, I want to keep that in focus.
just because we all want to ignore fish disease here doesn’t mean these two fish symptoms stated aren’t well handled in the proper forum.
nobody here told him to turn off the canister, test water inside it now, and compare that to a display reading?
we see clear, marked loss that a picture reveals, with no testing needed, when a fouled canister filter outputs so much daily ammonia a reef tank can’t handle it.
*notice the OP never mentions smell emanating from anywhere
never mentions smell, from an ammonia source pumping above 5ppm every day from a concentrated source? Nice and convenient.
we do not see a perfectly running reef, with only an api test causing ammonia fear, as proof of a broken cycle there’s 20 years of that already documented online.
I don’t believe for one second Dan or T think the display bac are dead. They are saying an input source exists so powerful as to overcome what current + surface area does in a reef tank
so just walk over to the canister, turn it off, run an ammonia test from the water inside the claimed rotted container and post the vial so we can see the color.
then one today on the display, post the vial so we can see it.
then one more fresh updated tank picture.
what’s not on file in forums: keeping a reef at 8ppm nh4 (calibrated seneye logs) for over a week straight with no symptoms
nobody including Dan or T has ever logged ammonia noncontrol prior to a fish kill and not caused by an error like dosing copper into a display in a reef tank, at month nine, I want to keep that in focus.
just because we all want to ignore fish disease here doesn’t mean these two fish symptoms stated aren’t well handled in the proper forum.
nobody here told him to turn off the canister, test water inside it now, and compare that to a display reading?
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bstone026
Active Member
It has not been 10 days i started this thread last sunday and began water change Saturday afternoon, unless weeks are now longer..Someone said I had no livestock loss, if you read the thread I lost a rusty angel all snails and most crabs my florida common starfish and 1 goby. I am not just making it up or fudging numbers, I write what factual observations I see. I personally have come to believe the macro algae may have over did the weak bio filtration (power loss) which led to an ammonia rise. I mean how many types of ammonia test should I have done, back before digital and still for that matter chemical Ammonia test are the standard test plus I took a control sample from a fully cycled tank with a reading of 0.0ppm Ammonia. Another reason my fish may not have died is because I did daily water swaps from the other tank and add straight RO water to the main tank bringing my salinity down to almost 1.020 ppm. I basically did everything in my power to baby this tank along.
About the copper it was not copper dosing, When I said a little copper was in the tank, I was talking about trace elements that were added. Someone mentioned my canisters were probalblly dirty, the had a full regular cleaning just a few days before same as always. Ammonia sitting at 1.00ppm at the moment I do expect it to rise again at least till the bio filtration recovers, 32once fritz was added
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Biglew11
Valuable Member
No body here has ever stated that they thought the bio filter itself crashed. OP as stated above he has lost livestock. Has stated that the fish were not acting normally. Done some test that can't be affected by other sources. Why would a diseased fish start acting normally after water change?
We don't know how the tank was setup for initial cycle. Did he use dry rock with canister filters already cycled. Is it not possible that this bulk of bio filtration was in the 2 canister filters, could a power failure of 2 hours kill off the filtration in the canisters. whatever filtration was in the tank is still there but is not possible for it to be overwhelmed?
I had a sponge filter on my return pump that when cleaned every 2 weeks or so had about a 1/2 - 1 cup of biological goop come out when squeezed.
Dan p and T have both posted that based on the testing done that it is possible that amonia exists in his tank. Yes they did say it would take a large bio mass and a weakened filter, but they did just outright deny the presence of amonia. Based on what I saw come out of that sponge there could be a substantial amount of bio mass in 2 canister filters.
Then we have the alert badge that supposedly can't be affected by other chemistry showing free amonia. Getting a digital reading (seneye) using a diferent reactive strip using simular reactions in this case would likely yeald the same results.
Your digital vs analog readings are nothing more than a digital reader converting the analog reading to a numerical number that we can see on a display. Yes those sensors can detect a much smaller change in color than we can but the technology of the color change is still using the same chemistry.
We don't know how the tank was setup for initial cycle. Did he use dry rock with canister filters already cycled. Is it not possible that this bulk of bio filtration was in the 2 canister filters, could a power failure of 2 hours kill off the filtration in the canisters. whatever filtration was in the tank is still there but is not possible for it to be overwhelmed?
I had a sponge filter on my return pump that when cleaned every 2 weeks or so had about a 1/2 - 1 cup of biological goop come out when squeezed.
Dan p and T have both posted that based on the testing done that it is possible that amonia exists in his tank. Yes they did say it would take a large bio mass and a weakened filter, but they did just outright deny the presence of amonia. Based on what I saw come out of that sponge there could be a substantial amount of bio mass in 2 canister filters.
Then we have the alert badge that supposedly can't be affected by other chemistry showing free amonia. Getting a digital reading (seneye) using a diferent reactive strip using simular reactions in this case would likely yeald the same results.
Your digital vs analog readings are nothing more than a digital reader converting the analog reading to a numerical number that we can see on a display. Yes those sensors can detect a much smaller change in color than we can but the technology of the color change is still using the same chemistry.
how he began the cycle won’t matter at month nine
only the degree of surface area matters
I didn’t see the losses mentioned in his opening posts it must have been after I quit watching other than for spot checks.
No, I don’t think ammonia noncontrol preceded those losses, the losses came before the ammonia spike. That’s the only order of ops all documentation available shows. Nice summary Lew.
if he left all those animals in the tank to rot, that’s not the same issue as removing them before they degrade and then claiming the ammonia challenge remains after they’re gone. most folks remove dead organisms quickly, and report those losses on page one when we are assessing symptoms. The losses wouldn’t delay for months, and then all manifest directly on one page of a cycle controversy thread
only the degree of surface area matters
I didn’t see the losses mentioned in his opening posts it must have been after I quit watching other than for spot checks.
No, I don’t think ammonia noncontrol preceded those losses, the losses came before the ammonia spike. That’s the only order of ops all documentation available shows. Nice summary Lew.
if he left all those animals in the tank to rot, that’s not the same issue as removing them before they degrade and then claiming the ammonia challenge remains after they’re gone. most folks remove dead organisms quickly, and report those losses on page one when we are assessing symptoms. The losses wouldn’t delay for months, and then all manifest directly on one page of a cycle controversy thread
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