Ammonia Pegged at 8.0 After 50% Water Change, Nitrate 10ppm, What's is happening!

[Dan_P]

@taricha @Dan_P

Can you guys look over this thread and share your thoughts? We seem to be separated in 2 different sides and we would really appreciate having your thoughts.

I will have a peek.

 

[bstone026]

Thank you Taricha! I knew you’d be super helpful!

You been with me and the kindest on this journey, The only reason I made this post wast for advise and factual help because I myself have never had something like this happen. I personally prefer canister filters I always have they have plenty of room for bio and chemical filtration, the 2 canisters you see hooked up the first one is rated at 525gph up to 150G, the second is 264gph rated at 60G. I wanted to point this out because some people where saying they were to small and were not big enough to hold the media. Well the big one has 5 racks 4 of which are full of matrix with the 5th rack holding carbon,purigen,clearmax. Now the smaller canister has 4 racks and all of those are full off matrix with bio sponges in there as well. I can't wait til my salt gets here and after I change the water and the ammonia drops..I wonder if they might finally believe the Api works and it was ammonia?

 

[reef_1]

Attacking other members is not what we do here on this forum.

Really? So why is brandon allowed to do it continously for years?

 

[Cell]

Really? So why is brandon allowed to do it continously for years?

You joined Aug 20th...

 

[Biglew11]

Your tank needs a hanna meter and a ph test to get nh3 real values, which align with allowing a tank of fish to swim normally every day.

the hanna meter reads total ammonia not just free ammonia. unless they have 2 meters for ammonia.

The digital ones just use a light beam and sensor to detect colour change and convert it into a number. Personally, my eyes work just fine.

even the seney uses a reactive strip that changes color. this is basically an analogue reaction that the seney or other readers will then shoot a beam of light at and convert this to a number that just appears digital reading. i do like the digital readers because they can detect a smaller change in the reaction, but in the end it is still an analogue reaction.

i don't know if seney use different or the same chemistry for the reaction as the seachem test badge does, but the end result is a color change based only on the presence of free ammonia.

the bottom line shouldn't be weather the reading is analogue or digital, since the actual reaction of the test was analogue, but weather the the readings are affected by other compounds in the tank.

 

[reef_1]

You joined Aug 20th...

But reading the forum for years!?

 

[brandon429]

Lew in my opinion the bottom line is does the system carry fish

Once it does, a cycle doesn't become undone

There are X number of days he can post an updated fts until 100% of readers agree there's no ammonia problem.

9 mos isn't enough? I think reasonably you should update the thread so all claims can be weighed against the full tank shot.

 

[bstone026]

Lew in my opinion the bottom line is does the system carry fish

Once it does, a cycle doesn't become undone

There are X number of days he can post an updated fts until 100% of readers agree there's no ammonia problem.

9 mos isn't enough? I think reasonably you should update the thread so all claims can be weighed against the full tank shot.

I know I've gotten a lot of help and advice on this thread, and I will most Definitely pass it forward in the future to help others with things that I am knowledgeable in.

 

[Biglew11]

Once it does, a cycle doesn't become undone

so what you are saying is that it's 100% impossible for an outside source (power outage on a canister filter) to have any influence at all period.
if ammonia is not present what compounds in a tank are there besides copper that affect ammonia test kits?
not really trying to say he has ammonia, but looking at the test and with the power outage and canister filters, with the limited knowledge i do have i would think ammonia is at least present.

I'm not ruling out disease just trying to wrap my head around how multiple test kits even one that only measures free ammonia can detect it at such high levels if it weren't present.

 

[Garf]

Ok, who said the cycle was knackered?

 

[Miami Reef]

Ok, who said the cycle was knackered?

Exactly.

Nobody said the cycle was killed. All we know is that the ammonia is higher than the amount the current bacteria load can process. Hence the purpose of adding more.

 

[Malcontent]

Salicylate ammonia tests can have false positives due to amines and amino acids. This is most often seen as an >8 ppm API ammonia test after using Ammo Lock, an amine per its SDS.

But as has been said at least twice already, the free ammonia sensing films are not fooled by anything we know of and if they say you have free ammonia you probably do.

 

[Garf]

Salicylate ammonia tests can have false positives due to amines and amino acids. This is most often seen as an >8 ppm API ammonia test after using Ammo Lock, an amine per its SDS.

But as has been said at least twice already, the free ammonia sensing films are not fooled by anything we know of and if they say you have free ammonia you probably do.

I spiked an API ammonia test sample with Acropower last year, fully expecting a false positive. Nothing showed up, so I don’t know what happened there.

 

[brandon429]

Lew

I'm saying there's no sustained source. You can have spikes in ammonia but not extended noncompliance where fish are acting normally every day for the age of the tank. Just because something is affecting the test here doesn't mean his cycle is broken, we're watching it carry life. Any pic I've seen of this tank was laser clear water looking good reef.

 

[Garf]

Lew

I'm saying there's no sustained source. You can have spikes in ammonia but not extended noncompliance where fish are acting normally every day for the age of the tank. Just because something is affecting the test here doesn't mean his cycle is broken, we're watching it carry life. Any pic I've seen of this tank was laser clear water looking good reef.

You have a whole thread about this, but you don’t seem to understand why, or at least fail to declare the truth. You advise on that thread that “All Stuck cycles” are misreads. Occassionally this could be true. However folks have been doing “fish in” cycles for donkeys years with elevated total ammonia. Basically you convert folks that want a fishless cycle (apparently for ethical reasons), into “fish in” cycles, which work, but not what the posters want. As previous, you are not grasping the lethality v ethical decision argument.

 

[Biglew11]

Lew

I'm saying there's no sustained source. You can have spikes in ammonia but not extended noncompliance where fish are acting normally every day for the age of the tank. Just because something is affecting the test here doesn't mean his cycle is broken, we're watching it carry life. Any pic I've seen of this tank was laser clear water looking good reef.

Salicylate ammonia tests can have false positives due to amines and amino acids. This is most often seen as an >8 ppm API ammonia test after using Ammo Lock, an amine per its SDS.

But as has been said at least twice already, the free ammonia sensing films are not fooled by anything we know of and if they say you have free ammonia you probably do.

We have an amonia alert badge that uses a sensing film that detects free amonia and is supposedly unaffected by anything in the tank showing very high levels of free amonia in a tank that can't possibly have sustained amonia.

So what's going on is the badge broken as well or is there a source of amonia that the bio filter can't quite process.

Not saying the cycle is stalled just wondering if there is a source of amonia.

 

[Malcontent]

We have an amonia alert badge that uses a sensing film that detects free amonia and is supposedly unaffected by anything in the tank showing very high levels of free amonia in a tank that can't possibly have sustained amonia.

So what's going on is the badge broken as well or is there a source of amonia that the bio filter can't quite process.

Not saying the cycle is stalled just wondering if there is a source of amonia.

It's doubtful that the API and the alert badge are both incorrect.

Ammonia is always diffusing through the gills of fish. Even if you stop feeding them they'll still produce some.

Your bio filter just isn't able to keep up for some reason. It could be that some of them died off or their nitrification rate declined. A number of things can inhibit them including dissolved organic carbon.

 

[brandon429]

Show that happening one time outside this thread

Curious to see any documentation on a failed reef tank cycle, I've been searching a long time.

 

[jabberwock]

I tried to quote your original post in order to NOT link to any other input.

You said yourself that you are an experienced aquarist. If any one can beat this, you can. You are there, looking at and interacting with your tank. You have a million times more information about it than anyone posting on this thread. There is lots of wonderful advice here, and some hog wash. You must filter through the opinions and make decisions based on what you observe in the tank. Don't let your judgment be clouded by people that have an innate need to be the smartest person on the internet. I have found that most of the time, people that ask me questions about what is going on are the most helpful and correct. I wish you the best possible outcome.

 

[Dan_P]

@Miami Reef, @bstone026 just read through the entire post and when I finished, I came up with a long list assumptions that were being made. Here are three I thought about further.

The lethality of unionized ammonia. I did not perform an extensive literature review but found this article with thought provoking ideas.

FA16/FA031: Ammonia in Aquatic Systems

Management of ammonia, the primary waste product of fish, is critical to fish health, especially in intensive systems. At low concentrations, ammonia causes stress and damages gills and other tissues. Fish exposed to low levels of ammonia over time are more susceptible to bacterial infections...

edis.ifas.ufl.edu

The most thought provoking was that gill damage can happen at 0.05 ppm free ammonia and around 2 ppm (!) free ammonia can be lethal for sensitive fish. This means bstone026’s 8 ppm total ammonia or ~0.3 ppm free ammonia is very bad for fish but not necessarily lethal.

This means we cannot use the fact that bstone026’s fish surviving so long to support the notion that the ammonia can’t be 8 ppm.

The second assumption, which might not be an assumption but we act like it is, concerns our surprise that a cycled aquarium can maintain an ammonia level at 8 ppm. A couple thoughts here. The reference above refers to killing a biofilter through oxygen starvation. Unfortunately, no details to help us understand the consequence of the two hour power outage on bstone026’s canister filters. Also, we might not have all the facts on the aquarium’s age nor how the nitrification system was started. A weak display tank biofilter relying on two canister filters that were potentially damaged in a power outage has to make one wonder if that is part of the problem.

Ammonia testing. The denial of ammonia rest results are nearing conspiracy theory fervor Assuming we are not being jerked around, when someone reports using the same test kit on two systems, one giving near zero and the other testing at 8 ppm, I move test kit failure off the list of likely solutions. And to continue to blame the test kit after water switches between the two systems resulted in a reduction of the 8 ppm water to near zero is being a bit stubborn, right?

I am left with trying to explain 8 ppm ammonia. My calculations indicate ounces of rotten seaweed or a good size fish completely rotted. Maybe @taricha could give us some insight into how big a glob of biomass is needed to give 8 ppm ammonia.