Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[Subsea]

This thread is a spin-off from the @mcarroll very successful Dino thread
The purpose is to discuss methods for removal and fighting against a particular strain of dinoflagellate - Large Cell Amphidinium. It seems to make up about a third of the cases of dinos.
The reason this strain gets its own thread is that it hugs the sand while all the other known kinds of dinos go into the water column at night, and therefore individual cells are easily targeted by UV or small micron filtration.

Reasons for splitting it off from the Dino thread:
1. Other dinos have a reliable method for direct cell removal / killing - so this information is not necessary for the 2/3 of hobbyists in the dino thread who have other kinds.
2. This kind seems to be the least toxic, in some cases not noticeably toxic at all - meaning some things that may work for this kind won't work on the others.
3. Some of this info is speculative and there may be missteps and dead ends, so best to keep the other thread with proven advice.
4. The Dino thread is huge, and digressions that don't affect most users there only make it less readable.

So if from the other Dino thread you have microscope confirmed amphidinium, first - adopt the nutrient recommendations from that thread. They absolutely apply to this kind as well. Then when you are tired of siphoning brown patches out of your sand all the time, consider giving these a try and documenting how it goes.

Treatment Methods
Best candidate: Silica dosing. The concept is that by dosing Si - which is virtually always depleted under normal tank conditions - we can grow diatoms to compete with the dinoflagellate.
Maybe the diatom bloom depletes another needed trace element, or perhaps the diatoms generate chemicals that directly suppress the dinos.
For details see this post with fairly to-the-point instructions [Several people have recently reported issues with Salifert Si test kit - beware]
For more background see this run-down of the paper it's based on.
And for general Silica reef tank discussion see Randy's article.

other ideas: Macroalgae Crowding. I have been able to chase out amphidinium outbreaks on more than one occasion by placing blobs of Chaetomorpha right on top of the brown dino patches.
for details, see my account here and also here

other ideas: Macroalgae Chemical Warfare. The seaweed Dictyota dichotoma has been found to emit chemicals that suppress dinos and force ostreopsis live cells to retreat entirely into cyst stage over the course of 20 days. The seaweed is itself considered a pest, and it may not be sensible to introduce it to chase out amphidinium which may not be very toxic at all.

Status quo: Nutrients and siphon. Handle nutrients as outlined in dino thread, vacuum out the brown patches every few days and wait it out.

Thank you for introducing this topic. My makeup water comes from Trinity Aquifier, which was the bottom of a shallow inland sea. It is full of silicates and it goes directly into my 25 year old Jaubert Plenum with 30G EcoSystem mud/macro filter.

http://www.fondriest.com/environmen...ality/algae-phytoplankton-chlorophyll/#algae1

Please read section on phytoplankton. I find it somewhat relevant to your topic and I will continue reading your thread.

 

[Dj City]

I really dislike dinos. (I don't like to use the word hate)
These little ******** just don't seem to want to die.
Came home from work yesterday, looked at the tank and dinos looking pretty strong.
If I've made a dent in the population with the UV vac, it had been a very tiny dent.
The are areas that seem to have slightly less dinos than I had previously but other areas that I vacuumed seem like nothing ever happened. Those areas are just as strong with dinos than before I vacuumed.

The experiment continues...

 

[Dj City]

Flow in the display is fantastic (I think).
I have a Jeabo DCP 15000 as return pump open all the way.
Maxspect gyre xf150 on one end of tank, jeabo crossflow cp40 on the other.
2 jerod rw4's on back wall in either corner and a mp10 in the middle on back wall.

I thought about r.u.g.f. but years after I set this tank up. I think that would have made a huge difference in never getting dinos on the 1st place.
I wish there were a way for me to implement one now but I'm NOT breaking the tank down to do it.

I will try blowing the sand and rocks along with the UV vac.

I have not raised my phosphates yet. Still don't have a phosphate test but once I do, I will be upping the level on the tank because I know it's very low.

 

[Dj City]

I wonder about maybe using airline tubing and burying it in the sand.
Maybe run light air through for an amount of time each day.
Or run it through a very weak powerhead to create something like a Reverse Uunder Gravel Filter.
Hmmmmmmm...

 

[Dj City]

Just got my hanna phosphate checker yesterday.
1st test..
Phosphate 0.00

Good thing I got seachem flourish phosphorus too.

 

[Dj City]

I dosed Seachem Flourish Phosphorus last night per directions.
Latest parameters

110gal Mixed Reef
Saturday 07/21 11:07 AM
Temperature: 79.2 °F
pH: 8.0
Nitrate: 5.0 ppm
Phosphate: 0.58 ppm
Salinity: 1.024 SG
Alkalinity: 10.9 dKH
Calcium: 480 ppm
Magnesium: 1465 ppm

I will dose again to try to bring it up to between 8 - 10 then I will sit back and test to see what rate of consumption I have.

 

[Dj City]

The more I think about it, the more I want to build a reverse undergravel filter.
My thought is that it will gently lift detritus, diatoms and dinos off the sandbed and into the water colum for removal via overflow and UV if you ar using one.

I am now looking for ideas as to HOW to get this done.

Here is a pic of my sandbed so you all can get an idea of what obstacles I need to overcome without ripping my tank apart.
I need to be able to do this in a way that others can replicate and... without having to break the tank down.

I need to get around and in between the corals and rockwork.

Here is an idea from DIY king...



I want to do something like this but on a smaller diameter and probably flexable in order to lay it down where I want it to be around the corals and rockwork.
Tubing, powerhead and flow control are challenges I need to overcome.

I want to hear ideas from the community.
Let the ideas begin!

 

[dwest]

I dosed Seachem Flourish Phosphorus last night per directions.
Latest parameters

110gal Mixed Reef
Saturday 07/21 11:07 AM
Temperature: 79.2 °F
pH: 8.0
Nitrate: 5.0 ppm
Phosphate: 0.58 ppm
Salinity: 1.024 SG
Alkalinity: 10.9 dKH
Calcium: 480 ppm
Magnesium: 1465 ppm

I will dose again to try to bring it up to between 8 - 10 then I will sit back and test to see what rate of consumption I have.

0.1ppm phosphate is about ideal.

 

[piehunter]

The more I think about it, the more I want to build a reverse undergravel filter.
My thought is that it will gently lift detritus, diatoms and dinos off the sandbed and into the water colum for removal via overflow and UV if you ar using one.

I am now looking for ideas as to HOW to get this done.

Here is a pic of my sandbed so you all can get an idea of what obstacles I need to overcome without ripping my tank apart.
I need to be able to do this in a way that others can replicate and... without having to break the tank down.

I need to get around and in between the corals and rockwork.

Here is an idea from DIY king...



I want to do something like this but on a smaller diameter and probably flexable in order to lay it down where I want it to be around the corals and rockwork.
Tubing, powerhead and flow control are challenges I need to overcome.

I want to hear ideas from the community.
Let the ideas begin!

ever considered silicate dosing mate ?

 

[Dj City]

ever considered silicate dosing mate ?

I've considered it but so far I'm against it. I don't want to replace something I don't want (dinos) with something else I don't want (diatoms).

Im moving slow and trying other methods to rid myself of dinos hopefully without adding another unwanted pest.

In my experience, silicates are not easy to get rid of once introduced. Keeping other nutrients in check gets tricky while trying to lower silicates after the diatoms bloom. It's hard to lower silicates without dropping phosphates and nitrates at the same time.
I'm trying to avoid a cycle of chasing balance between silicates, nitrates, phosphates, dinos, diatoms and unwanted algae in the display.

 

[piehunter]

I've considered it but so far I'm against it. I don't want to replace something I don't want (dinos) with something else I don't want (diatoms).

Im moving slow and trying other methods to rid myself of dinos hopefully without adding another unwanted pest.

In my experience, silicates are not easy to get rid of once introduced. Keeping other nutrients in check gets tricky while trying to lower silicates after the diatoms bloom. It's hard to lower silicates without dropping phosphates and nitrates at the same time.
I'm trying to avoid a cycle of chasing balance between silicates, nitrates, phosphates, dinos, diatoms and unwanted algae in the display.

Diatoms will right themselves once the silicate supply runs out which usually happens fast .. you would let them run their course and not under any circumstances use anything to lower phosphates .. No GFO specifically

if your very careful at raising your nitrates and phosphates to low levels then removal should be easy and also algae shouldn't be a major issue

i tired all different methods a-z and have eventually tore the tank down and a diatom bloom has finally happened in my holding tank and no sign of dinos when i take samples from the tank finally although im still letting the diatoms run have their bloom to make sure dinos are eradicated

 

[bdub22rhp]

Can someone post a link to a Hanna SI checker please? I can't seem to find one online anywhere.

 

[CDavmd]

d

Can someone post a link to a Hanna SI checker please? I can't seem to find one online anywhere.

directly from Hanna-
hannainst.com

...the question which I asked last week and have not seen answer yet is- are people using the high range or low range checkers?

 

[Dj City]

I believe I'm turning a corner with dinos (I hope).
I vacuumed out dinos two days ago from the sandbed and here we are, two days later...
Dinos have not come back in those spots.

I have been vacuuming dinos through the UV directly by using the UV as a sand vac. I have been doing that about every other day for the past week and a half or so.
I have not been able to reach all spots that are affected but I hit the majority of them.

Two days ago, I used a regular water change tube to vacuum the dinos out the tank into a 5 gal bucket.
Again, I could not reach them all but got the majority out.

Two days later and all the places I got the dinos out...
They have not come back. Sand is still white.
I also pulled out my trusty cheapo microscope and checked the water in the bucket.
I saw waaaaaaaaay less dinos than I thought I would find. I had to really search for them by moving the slide around.
Not only that but the ones I did find were not moving at all. No movement whatsoever.
I thought to myself, "This can't be right" so I took another sample with sand in it and hit the microscope again.
I saw the same thing! I saw the sand, almost no dinos and the dinos i did see were not moving at all.

I am encouraged by this and will get a smaller tube to UV vac the spots I have not been able to reach.

Anyone have pics of dead dinos?
I would like to see what they look like dead to confirm that the ones I saw are indeed dead and not sleeping or in shock.

 

[Dj City]

d

directly from Hanna-
hannainst.com

...the question which I asked last week and have not seen answer yet is- are people using the high range or low range checkers?

Low range

 

[Dj City]

I've come to find out that I HAVE been dosing silicates...

This is my latest ATI ICP RO/DI water test results

Silicon..... 99.96 µg/l .....0 µg/l..... +99.96 µg/l

Nitrate ....0 mg/.....l 2.00 mg/........l -2.00 mg/l

Phosphorus ...3.15 µg/....l 0 µg/l ...+3.15 µg/l

Phosphate ...0.01 mg/...l 0 mg/...l +0.01 mg/l

With the readings from my RO/DI, I need to be very careful of not overdosing.
Time for new sediment filter and carbon block. I recently changed out my membrane so I don't think that's where it's coming from. DI resin is not showing that it's used up so the carbon block and sediment filter is all I can think of to get these readings from RO/DI water.

 

[bdub22rhp]

Just ordered cocktail of bacteria, silicate to dose, and Hanna checker to test silicate. Been battling for a few months with putting water through 5 micron socks and back in tank. No luck. Frustration is setting in as I've lost a decent amount of corals due to light adjustments and no water changes. Pretty upsetting.

 

[piehunter]

Holding tank over run with diatoms and hair algae mix .. no dinos showing under microscope

Tank seem to just take off one day growing diatoms everywhere a few days after moving all corals and fish and a small piece of shaked off liverock from infected tank

no dipping or anything even used the water from the infected tank as i didn't want a cycle

My assumption is lack of dinos coming across let the diatoms finally get a hold but i could be wrong or die off let the diatoms and other algae greated conditions for algae growth

So its been 2 weeks with no signs of dinos so what do i do now .. keep dosing silicates or just let the tank run with no water changes and regular feeding as normal ?

 

[MannyT]

Sup, guys? I meant to post this on this thread and not the main dino one.

I’ve been battling amphidinium and ostreopsis on my Biocube 29 for a few months now. With advice from people on this forum, I started dosing NO3 and PO4, and SI. I removed all my media and additives, I’m only running filter floss. I purchased a UV sterilizer and that seemed to kill off all the brown stringy stuff on the rocks, but getting rid of the brown rust stuff on the sand has been more of a challenge. Last week, I did my first water change in over 4 weeks or so. Ive removed about half of my sand within the past few weeks. I’m not sure what happened, but as of this past Monday I have yet to see any brown spots on my sand. My question is, what should my next move be? Do I still hold off on water changes?

 

[dwest]

I am in same place as you. I plan to keep phosphates and nitrates elevated, move my UV from DT to return line and never add gfo or try to run low nutrients. I’ve always done wc as stopping didn’t seem to help.