Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[JCTReefer]

It will not "absorb" hydrogen peroxide. However, you want to ensure that the peroxide has completely finished oxidizing before adding it to your tank. You will also want to complete remove the new oxidized detritus and other organics before adding to your tank. Therefore, you will need to repeat your rinses to remove the previous organics- this will also have the secondary effect of elimination of any remaining oxidizers via dilution. For these steps, you do not need to rinse with RODI- tap water will do just fine. I would only use RODI as a final rinse (with or without a dechlorinator) to remove any chloramine/chlorine from the tap water). You can also completely dry the sand to remove any chlorine, although this takes far longer to do in practice.

Thanks,
Gotcha on the final rinse with Ro/Di..
Not sure how long it takes the peroxide to oxidize, but I’d figure an hour or so would be good. I drained all the water off the top and added 2 Dixie cups full back in the tank. I didn’t rinse again. I was wanting it to have some residual peroxide left on it. It’s kind of an experiment also, to see if the aragonite kills the dinos I poured it on. I just wasn’t sure on the absorption thing. I know, sand will absorb a lot of things. Hopefully, I didn’t just nuke the tank. I’ll keep things updated. Thanks for your reply!

 

[andrewey]

I'm not sure I would have taken that gamble. I'm also not sure an hour is enough time if you saturate the sand like that. Last time I used peroxide on my sand, it continued to fizzle for hours at the deeper layers. I would watch your tank closely. Hopefully, the water in your tank will adequate dilute any residual you just poured into your tank, but keep in mind how strong of an oxidant peroxide is- I would tread very cautiously in the future . Hoping you're lucky this time around...

You still should rinse your sand following your H202 treatment.

If you are going to dose peroxide, you should pour a random dose into your tank (even if it was the residual in the sand). You should dose a controlled amount, otherwise you risk killing EVERYTHING in your tank.

 

[JCTReefer]

I'm not sure I would have taken that gamble. I'm also not sure an hour is enough time if you saturate the sand like that. Last time I used peroxide on my sand, it continued to fizzle for hours at the deeper layers. I would watch your tank closely. Hopefully, the water in your tank will adequate dilute any residual you just poured into your tank, but keep in mind how strong of an oxidant peroxide is- I would tread very cautiously in the future . Hoping you're lucky this time around...

You still should rinse your sand following your H202 treatment.

If you are going to dose peroxide, you should pour a random dose into your tank (even if it was the residual in the sand). You should dose a controlled amount, otherwise you risk killing EVERYTHING in your tank.

Well, in the past, I have always dosed a measured dose of peroxide per gallons. I usually don’t just dump random amounts in for the heck of it! But, I just did. I’m assuming you meant, you shouldn’t pour a random dose in your tank. I agree one million percent!!!! I rinsed this sand for a good while before boiling it previously. And rinsed again many times before the peroxide soak. Just not after. If I went with my gut, I would have not added it. Or just rinsed again before adding.
I’ll keep an eye on things. I’ll report back if everything turns south. I will tread cautiously in the future. Thanks for the input! This ain’t my first rodeo. Been at it for 20 years, but never dealt with dinos. But still learning and asking questions
I’m not sure if we ever stop learning in this hobby.

 

[Cwentz758]

can we ID these and methods to kill them? They look like the ones that go into the water column at night. I have been running a 15w HOB UV from aqua illumination for almost 2 weeks with no change along with stirring the sand.

 

[taricha]

can we ID these and methods to kill them?

These are amphidinium (large cell). You're in the right thread.

 

[agol77]

Hi all. Bit of a long post, but I’m currently shocked, confused, but delighted!

I have been fighting large cell Amphidinium for the past year. It began when I restarted my 170 litre tank after being plagued by Aptaisia, turf and bubble algae. I bleached the live rock and recycled the tank, swapped out my old LEDs for new ones plus twin T5s with ATI Blue Plus and Coral Plus bulbs. This was last summer (2019). Within two weeks of turning the lights on, dinos started to turn up on the sand, and the battle began.

I read as much as I could on it, and started to try the typical approaches; blackouts, H2O2, regular water changes, then no water changes, bottled bacteria (I’ve tried several now), but nothing worked. I then removed the sand, but it just spread on to the rocks and started smothering and killing the corals. In desperation, I tried Dino-X, which led to about 70% of my corals withering away and dying. I’d had enough, so decided to restart the tank again completely.

I set up a quarantine tank for the fish and remaining corals, but even after dipping them, they all continued to deteriorate and eventually died (the fish remain fine to this day). I set up the main tank with brand new Marco Rock, sand, and new filter media, and cycled for six weeks with the lights off, using Dr Tim’s. I then added five mollies and left it for another few weeks before returning the original fish. Turned the lights on, added some cheap soft corals (I’m a teacher and this tank is in my classroom, so I want to keep it as cheap as possible), and within two weeks the dinos were back on the sand. I’m assuming they got back in with the fish, somehow. (Interestingly, the dinos showed up in the quarantine tank quite quickly last summer, so I removed half the sand that was under the one LED light, and that was it, it went away and never come back. I keep that tank running with some mollies and macro algae in, so I can quarantine new corals, and I’ve not seen any dinos for nearly a year).

I started fighting the dinos in my main tank around Christmas time. Having done even more reading this time (this is a great site), I started out removing the sand, and dosing silicates, phosphates, and nitrates, as they were a bit low. I reduced water changes, but couldn’t go longer than a week without having to turkey baste and toothbrush the rocks, as the Dino was starting to affect the corals again. I gave up the dirty method after a couple of months, as couldn’t see any changes, and went to weekly 25-50% water changes and rock scrubbing. That has been my life for the past few months.

After a while, I decided to try Vibrant, as some turf/hair algae was growing and getting smothered in Dino. Like many people, I overdid it and a few weeks ago was rewarded with cyano. I left it for a couple of weeks, in the hope the cyano would defeat the Dino and then I could just have one manageable pest to deal with. It didn’t work, and both cyano and Dino covered the rocks, coral, and glass. I was starting to think about shutting the tank down at this point, but am stubborn.

I decided to get rid of the cyano so treated the tank with UltraLife Red Slime Remover. I’ve used this a few times over the years in fresh and marine tanks, so was confident it would work. I also had a thought about the lighting, as that was the only constant in this tank for the entire time I’d been battling Dino. The quarantine tank has an old TMC tile over half the tank, and an even older T8 freshwater bulb leftover from when I used the tank for breeding Corydoras catfish, and the Dino disappeared really quickly and never came back. In the main tank I decided to try to replicate the straight blue and white colour from the quarantine tank, so swapped out the Coral Plus bulb and replaced it with a new cheap Blue Plus style bulb (iQuatics) to see if it made a difference. The colour isn’t as nice now, as I loved the way the Coral Plus bulb made the corals pop.

This all happened just over a week ago, and as of this afternoon the cyano has all gone, and there is no new Dino. There are a few small spots on some rocks that I missed during last weeks clean, but it is looking thin and pale, like it is struggling to hold on. This is the first week in a year that I haven’t had to worry about Dino smothering and killing my corals, whilst making the tank look like a disgusting brown mess.

I don’t know why it hasn’t grown back this week, but can only think it has to do with either the UltraLife, the bulb change, or both. At the moment I’m just delighted that I can’t see any Dino in the tank without really looking hard for it.

I will continue to monitor it, and will provide updates in a week or two. I would have preferred to have waited longer than a week before posting this, but for anyone who’s been battling this problem, I’m sure you’ll understand my need to share any type of victory!

 

[andrewey]

Have you taken spot samples to confirm your observations? I too saw a decrease in their outward appearance that I thought correlated well with some actions I was taking, only to learn that their population density had not changed.

Additionally, I'm really optimistic for your success, but I can't help but be reminded of all the posts on RC where people claimed changing their light bulbs helped cure their fish's ich (hint, it didn't). Richard Ross actually talks about this exact phenomenon if you want to watch his Macna video.

 

[Miller535]

Hi all. Bit of a long post, but I’m currently shocked, confused, but delighted!

I have been fighting large cell Amphidinium for the past year. It began when I restarted my 170 litre tank after being plagued by Aptaisia, turf and bubble algae. I bleached the live rock and recycled the tank, swapped out my old LEDs for new ones plus twin T5s with ATI Blue Plus and Coral Plus bulbs. This was last summer (2019). Within two weeks of turning the lights on, dinos started to turn up on the sand, and the battle began.

I read as much as I could on it, and started to try the typical approaches; blackouts, H2O2, regular water changes, then no water changes, bottled bacteria (I’ve tried several now), but nothing worked. I then removed the sand, but it just spread on to the rocks and started smothering and killing the corals. In desperation, I tried Dino-X, which led to about 70% of my corals withering away and dying. I’d had enough, so decided to restart the tank again completely.

I set up a quarantine tank for the fish and remaining corals, but even after dipping them, they all continued to deteriorate and eventually died (the fish remain fine to this day). I set up the main tank with brand new Marco Rock, sand, and new filter media, and cycled for six weeks with the lights off, using Dr Tim’s. I then added five mollies and left it for another few weeks before returning the original fish. Turned the lights on, added some cheap soft corals (I’m a teacher and this tank is in my classroom, so I want to keep it as cheap as possible), and within two weeks the dinos were back on the sand. I’m assuming they got back in with the fish, somehow. (Interestingly, the dinos showed up in the quarantine tank quite quickly last summer, so I removed half the sand that was under the one LED light, and that was it, it went away and never come back. I keep that tank running with some mollies and macro algae in, so I can quarantine new corals, and I’ve not seen any dinos for nearly a year).

I started fighting the dinos in my main tank around Christmas time. Having done even more reading this time (this is a great site), I started out removing the sand, and dosing silicates, phosphates, and nitrates, as they were a bit low. I reduced water changes, but couldn’t go longer than a week without having to turkey baste and toothbrush the rocks, as the Dino was starting to affect the corals again. I gave up the dirty method after a couple of months, as couldn’t see any changes, and went to weekly 25-50% water changes and rock scrubbing. That has been my life for the past few months.

After a while, I decided to try Vibrant, as some turf/hair algae was growing and getting smothered in Dino. Like many people, I overdid it and a few weeks ago was rewarded with cyano. I left it for a couple of weeks, in the hope the cyano would defeat the Dino and then I could just have one manageable pest to deal with. It didn’t work, and both cyano and Dino covered the rocks, coral, and glass. I was starting to think about shutting the tank down at this point, but am stubborn.

I decided to get rid of the cyano so treated the tank with UltraLife Red Slime Remover. I’ve used this a few times over the years in fresh and marine tanks, so was confident it would work. I also had a thought about the lighting, as that was the only constant in this tank for the entire time I’d been battling Dino. The quarantine tank has an old TMC tile over half the tank, and an even older T8 freshwater bulb leftover from when I used the tank for breeding Corydoras catfish, and the Dino disappeared really quickly and never came back. In the main tank I decided to try to replicate the straight blue and white colour from the quarantine tank, so swapped out the Coral Plus bulb and replaced it with a new cheap Blue Plus style bulb (iQuatics) to see if it made a difference. The colour isn’t as nice now, as I loved the way the Coral Plus bulb made the corals pop.

This all happened just over a week ago, and as of this afternoon the cyano has all gone, and there is no new Dino. There are a few small spots on some rocks that I missed during last weeks clean, but it is looking thin and pale, like it is struggling to hold on. This is the first week in a year that I haven’t had to worry about Dino smothering and killing my corals, whilst making the tank look like a disgusting brown mess.

I don’t know why it hasn’t grown back this week, but can only think it has to do with either the UltraLife, the bulb change, or both. At the moment I’m just delighted that I can’t see any Dino in the tank without really looking hard for it.

I will continue to monitor it, and will provide updates in a week or two. I would have preferred to have waited longer than a week before posting this, but for anyone who’s been battling this problem, I’m sure you’ll understand my need to share any type of victory!

Glad to hear that. I have read where those running adjustable LED lighting have had some success with adjusting their lights to the more blue spectrum and away from the white. So Your experience seems to align with theirs. Keep us updated.

 

[agol77]

Have you taken spot samples to confirm your observations? I too saw a decrease in their outward appearance that I thought correlated well with some actions I was taking, only to learn that their population density had not changed.

Additionally, I'm really optimistic for your success, but I can't help but be reminded of all the posts on RC where people claimed changing their light bulbs helped cure their fish's ich (hint, it didn't). Richard Ross actually talks about this exact phenomenon if you want to watch his Macna video.

Good points, Andrew. I am not for a moment celebrating and thinking they have gone for good; it'll take a lot longer than a week for me to believe that. I am just pleased that for the first time in ages I don't have to clean the rocks this week, and can just look at the tank and enjoy the fish and corals. I will follow your suggestion though and take some samples later in the week. I have microscopes and slides at hand, so will take samples from various spots in the tank, and let you know what shows up.

 

[RMS18]

I'm not sure about changing the bulbs being a solution. I am running all blue plus bulbs and reefbrite actinitc and Amphidinium are doing well.

I also tried the increasing temp. I went from 78- 83. Tank has been at 83 for 3 weeks now I believe, no change really. At first after a cleaning they didn't come back as fast. They seemed to be halted with their appearance on the sand visually. About 3 days ago that's when they started to increase.

I did notice during that one week or so when they didn't seem to increase the brown was just under each sand particle and around the edges if that makes sense. They were not creating that webbing that covers the actual sand up until three days ago. Every night the sand clear up 100% now with the wedding that they're creating even in the morning before the lights come on this and still Brown and slimy in some areas.

 

[agol77]

I'm not sure about changing the bulbs being a solution. I am running all blue plus bulbs and reefbrite actinitc and Amphidinium are doing well.

I also tried the increasing temp. I went from 78- 83. Tank has been at 83 for 3 weeks now I believe, no change really. At first after a cleaning they didn't come back as fast. They seemed to be halted with their appearance on the sand visually. About 3 days ago that's when they started to increase.

I did notice during that one week or so when they didn't seem to increase the brown was just under each sand particle and around the edges if that makes sense. They were not creating that webbing that covers the actual sand up until three days ago. Every night the sand clear up 100% now with the wedding that they're creating even in the morning before the lights come on this and still Brown and slimy in some areas.

That's disappointing to hear. I guess mine could be just adjusting to the changes I made, quietly regrouping and getting ready to come back with a vengeance. In 30 years of fishkeeping (admittedly mostly freshwater), I have never encountered something so difficult to get rid of.

Good luck with your battle.

 

[CDavmd]

So I have had my temps at 82-83 for one month and I see no resolution of my Amphidinium Dino's. They have essentially become the predominant species while the small cell amphidinium and ostreopsis have basically disappeared. Over the past month I have done the following:

1. Raised Temps to 82ish
2. Several times during the day I run my pumps full to stir things up.
3. Pentair UV 25 watt plumbed in and out of display
4. I had been running the UV at 280-330 gph but decided to try lower flow and now at 170gph
5. H2O2 1cc per gallon nightly x 7 days, followed by morning dosing of bacteria
6. Dosing Silicates with current level at 1ppm while my Nitrate is at 20 and phosphate .1-.2
7. Nightly vacuuming of sand through a 1 micron sock

So again my ostreopsis and small cell amphidinium have resolved and only large cell Amphidinium remain but they are significant. Between the diatom bloom and the amphidinium my sand gets pretty darn brown by the end of the day. Looks especially awful under blue lights.

Not sure what else there is to do other than rip the sand out and I don't want to that. So incredibly frustrating!

 

[Cwentz758]

So I have had my temps at 82-83 for one month and I see no resolution of my Amphidinium Dino's. They have essentially become the predominant species while the small cell amphidinium and ostreopsis have basically disappeared. Over the past month I have done the following:

1. Raised Temps to 82ish
2. Several times during the day I run my pumps full to stir things up.
3. Pentair UV 25 watt plumbed in and out of display
4. I had been running the UV at 280-330 gph but decided to try lower flow and now at 170gph
5. H2O2 1cc per gallon nightly x 7 days, followed by morning dosing of bacteria
6. Dosing Silicates with current level at 1ppm while my Nitrate is at 20 and phosphate .1-.2
7. Nightly vacuuming of sand through a 1 micron sock

So again my ostreopsis and small cell amphidinium have resolved and only large cell Amphidinium remain but they are significant. Between the diatom bloom and the amphidinium my sand gets pretty darn brown by the end of the day. Looks especially awful under blue lights.

Not sure what else there is to do other than rip the sand out and I don't want to that. So incredibly frustrating!

I ripped my sand out and rinsed it for an hour. The large cell came back about a week later.

 

[CDavmd]

I ripped my sand out and rinsed it for an hour. The large cell came back about a week later.

I'm starting to believe there is no solution.....nothing we try works long term. Just look at this thread its utterly depressing!

Just giving up....let them take over the sand bed and clean them up and knock them back on the weekend....repeat...repeat...repeat...I guess its just part of 21st century reefing. To think that once upon a time I set up reefs and the biggest issue was hair algae!

 

[andrewey]

I wouldn't say nothing works- clearly there are people in the thread that have had sucsess. I think we're still trying to figure out what works for the average reefer, as something about the local conditions or possibly even species of amphidinium matter a lot. Clearly amphidinium aren't as easy as say ostreoposis, but with enough data points and luck we may one day figure it out. If you want to feel optimistic, just remember, it wasn't too long ago that people were taking down their tanks because of bryopsis before fluconazole came into vogue.

I can't argue with you about it being depressing - all I have is hope when my lights first come on and depression right before they go off

 

[Cwentz758]

I almost wonder if, RIPPiNG the sand and rock. Then dosing silicates and getting the diatoms for awhile would keep the Dino’s at bay. When I ripped mine I had white sand for about two weeks then the Dino’s came back. But if I had the diatoms out eating them before hand.... then eventually got rid of the diatoms.

 

[andrewey]

Personally, I'm not a fan of ripping a tank as a treatment for anything, but if you're going to do it, I'd love to see how it goes

 

[RMS18]

Has anyone just left their tank alone and kept the big 3 and nutrients stable and within a healthy range? We do black outs, and dose bacterias of all kinds which throw other mirco levels off. We remove sand which includes the biodiversity. We increase and decrease nutrients which plays a big part on alkalinity and calcium which can affects corals and other stuff we can't see. We dose silicates and make changes that the tanks weren't experiencing prior to. We dose dinox and other harsh items. We change par levels and spectrum. We run heavy carbon which can strip the water of elements our fish and corals need.

How about we just keep the big 3 super stable, keep nutrients in a healthy stable range and keep on our routine regular tank maintenance and wait? Allow the system to balance back.. it became unbalanced by something we did (not over night might I add), dropped nutrients, over dosed aminos.

Just a thought and something I'm doing. I'm tired of the alk swings and nutrient swings from all the bacteria and swing from everything else I've done. It's stunting sps growth, losing color and even stn some. If corals aren't happy then biodiversity can't be happy either.

 

[CDavmd]

Has anyone just left their tank alone and kept the big 3 and nutrients stable and within a healthy range? We do black outs, and dose bacterias of all kinds which throw other mirco levels off. We remove sand which includes the biodiversity. We increase and decrease nutrients which plays a big part on alkalinity and calcium which can affects corals and other stuff we can't see. We dose silicates and make changes that the tanks weren't experiencing prior to. We dose dinox and other harsh items. We change par levels and spectrum. We run heavy carbon which can strip the water of elements our fish and corals need.

How about we just keep the big 3 super stable, keep nutrients in a healthy stable range and keep on our routine regular tank maintenance and wait? Allow the system to balance back.. it became unbalanced by something we did (not over night might I add), dropped nutrients, over dosed aminos.

Just a thought and something I'm doing. I'm tired of the alk swings and nutrient swings from all the bacteria and swing from everything else I've done. It's stunting sps growth, losing color and even stn some. If corals aren't happy then biodiversity can't be happy either.

Exactly my thoughts....hence my post stating giving up. I'm just going to let them be. I've been dosing silicates and I have horrible diatom bloom all over that makes the sand look worse than ever. The only good to come from it is the explosion of pods on the glass which my wrasse likes.

I'm going to leave the temp where it is for now but otherwise I'm going back to just feeding, keeping NO3 and PO4 in the right zone, and let it be. My SPS are starting to recover and look good....time to let them grow without all this stress. Amphidinium is minimally toxic and clearly everything we do is worse for are corals than letting things be. Maybe we'll wake up one morning and see a lush garden of hair algae (I honestly would give anything to trade for that)

 

[andrewey]

Has anyone just left their tank alone and kept the big 3 and nutrients stable and within a healthy range? We do black outs, and dose bacterias of all kinds which throw other mirco levels off. We remove sand which includes the biodiversity. We increase and decrease nutrients which plays a big part on alkalinity and calcium which can affects corals and other stuff we can't see. We dose silicates and make changes that the tanks weren't experiencing prior to. We dose dinox and other harsh items. We change par levels and spectrum. We run heavy carbon which can strip the water of elements our fish and corals need.

How about we just keep the big 3 super stable, keep nutrients in a healthy stable range and keep on our routine regular tank maintenance and wait? Allow the system to balance back.. it became unbalanced by something we did (not over night might I add), dropped nutrients, over dosed aminos.

Just a thought and something I'm doing. I'm tired of the alk swings and nutrient swings from all the bacteria and swing from everything else I've done. It's stunting sps growth, losing color and even stn some. If corals aren't happy then biodiversity can't be happy either.

I think the reason you don't often see the "do nothing" approach is largely a historical one. When I first started in the hobby, the recommendation was either to do nothing or to reduce nutrient levels. I had a few buddies that chose to let things play out and one tank I was called in to work on from an owner that hadn't touched it in months beyond adding top off water and feeding the fish. In all of the cases, those that did nothing often ended up losing of their corals as well as some other animals. Two of the cases were for ostreopsis, which is decidedly more toxic and at least one I scoped out as amphidinium. Anyway, I know my little anecdote is only an n=4, however from what I've seen personally as well as the reefers I've talked to who said they didn't do anything and did have amphidinium, I don't think letting the tank reach "equilibrium" has proven to be an effective stratedgy. I'd love if the Julian Sprung model of disturbance/equilibrium/homeostasis/stressor was effective for these dinos, but I haven't seen any evidence to that effect.

That being said, if you want to run the experiment, I'd love to follow how it goes