Current Quarantine Protocol

[hairyashell]

From the brief glimpse, I can’t rule out Lymphocystis - a non-fatal viral infection that typically goes away in six weeks or so.
Jay

I suspect as such. I am going to be moving them to the DT tomorrow as both seems healthy and eating. Any recommendations on how to move them without any copper being transferred from the QT? From what I understand, puffers are not supposed to be transferred using a net. Any suggestion on how to do the transfer for it?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I suspect as such. I am going to be moving them to the DT tomorrow as both seems healthy and eating. Any recommendations on how to move them without any copper being transferred from the QT? From what I understand, puffers are not supposed to be transferred using a net. Any suggestion on how to do the transfer for it?

Yes, catching puffer up out of water can cause them to ingest air. A small amount of water with copper in it isn't going to hurt anything, but there are things you can do to minimize it. First - are the QT and DT close enough in water quality that you won't have to acclimate? If so, you can take some DT water, put it in a container, and then catch the puffer and sort of edge it into the container at the surface of the QT. If you need to acclimated, you just do the process in reverse, and then throw out the acclimation water after you edge the puffer into the DT.



Jay

 

[hairyashell]

Yes, catching puffer up out of water can cause them to ingest air. A small amount of water with copper in it isn't going to hurt anything, but there are things you can do to minimize it. First - are the QT and DT close enough in water quality that you won't have to acclimate? If so, you can take some DT water, put it in a container, and then catch the puffer and sort of edge it into the container at the surface of the QT. If you need to acclimated, you just do the process in reverse, and then throw out the acclimation water after you edge the puffer into the DT.



Jay

Puffer and eel went into the DT.

New batch of livestock just went into QT. Anything specifically I should look out for before I start raising copper? have a couple of angels in there. Are they prone to bacterial diseases? Any prevention methods?

 

[Eric Cohen]

Hello Jay! Long time old friend! I'm back in the fish side of things this past 6 months, and new to R2R. We have two selling websites with one being a full concierge service holding all our fish and conditioning the fish before shipping. We have been avoiding copper for the most part and doing a Tank Transfer method using three different holding systems. Similar to Humble Fish "Hybrid" method, we are following this protocol using Prazi, Fenbendazole, and Hydrogen peroxide as standard treatment. The past 6 months we have battled some serious fluke issues, but once we got those under control, our standard procedures now are showing very successful. You will start seeing some of our banners show up on here as we are just launching now on R2R.....look forward to participating with you all in the future. Eric

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Puffer and eel went into the DT.

New batch of livestock just went into QT. Anything specifically I should look out for before I start raising copper? have a couple of angels in there. Are they prone to bacterial diseases? Any prevention methods?

I have a couple of fish compatibility concerns here: see how the eels tail is dangling down by the puffer? I’m worried the puffer will decide to take a bite. Also, that is a pretty large clown trigger to keep with clownfish.
I generally observe the fish for 48 hours, then ramp the copper up in two half doses, 12 hours apart. I don’t treat with antibiotics unless I see signs of infection, but I do treat for flukes with prazi after the copper is done.
Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello Jay! Long time old friend! I'm back in the fish side of things this past 6 months, and new to R2R. We have two selling websites with one being a full concierge service holding all our fish and conditioning the fish before shipping. We have been avoiding copper for the most part and doing a Tank Transfer method using three different holding systems. Similar to Humble Fish "Hybrid" method, we are following this protocol using Prazi, Fenbendazole, and Hydrogen peroxide as standard treatment. The past 6 months we have battled some serious fluke issues, but once we got those under control, our standard procedures now are showing very successful. You will start seeing some of our banners show up on here as we are just launching now on R2R.....look forward to participating with you all in the future. Eric

Hi Eric!

Glad to have you onboard!

I retired as aquarium curator back in October, but stayed on half time as their general curator of accreditation and compliance. I do this mostly from home, and that has freed up more time for me here.

Jay

 

[hairyashell]

I have a couple of fish compatibility concerns here: see how the eels tail is dangling down by the puffer? I’m worried the puffer will decide to take a bite. Also, that is a pretty large clown trigger to keep with clownfish.
I generally observe the fish for 48 hours, then ramp the copper up in two half doses, 12 hours apart. I don’t treat with antibiotics unless I see signs of infection, but I do treat for flukes with prazi after the copper is done.
Jay

Oh the puffer and eel are doing quite ok. The puffer is quite docile and not aggressive towards the eel. So far no issues since they have been together in the QT and now in the DT.

In the 2nd batch of fish, the clowns will go into their own separate tank after QT is over. I have cordoned off the blue face angel from the emperor since it was being aggressive towards it. Will cordone off the trigger if needed.

 

[hairyashell]

Here is a photo of the emperor up close. Is it normal for it have a slight discolored patches on the body? It's eating and active. I've slowly started to raise copper power (now at about 1ppm)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here is a photo of the emperor up close. Is it normal for it have a slight discolored patches on the body? It's eating and active. I've slowly started to raise copper power (now at about 1ppm)

Raising copper power slowly on new fish is a mistake - you need to get to a full dose (testing accurately) in 24 hours.

Emperor angels are prone to skin flukes - the blotches can be caused by that. You might consider a prazipro treatment, or a FW dip to buy some time for the copper treatment.

Jay

 

[hairyashell]

Raising copper power slowly on new fish is a mistake - you need to get to a full dose (testing accurately) in 24 hours.

Emperor angels are prone to skin flukes - the blotches can be caused by that. You might consider a prazipro treatment, or a FW dip to buy some time for the copper treatment.

Jay

Isnt it more stressful for the fish to raise copper within 24 hours than over a few days?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Isnt it more stressful for the fish to raise copper within 24 hours than over a few days?

That isn't proven, but what IS known is that keeping a fish below the proper dose of copper allows diseases to gain a foothold and then copper has difficulty effecting a cure.

This whole "add copper slowly" was based on the old copper/citric acid medications. Centropyge angels and some wrasses would have trouble with it, so we would ramp the dose up slowly over 48 hours. What happened is some people extrapolated that over to organically bound coppers like coppersafe and copper power. Then, just like with fallow periods, some people thought, well if two days is good, then six is even better (grin). I had one person raise their copper over 12 days.

I cannot think of any human medication that needs to be ramped up slowly. Steroids need to be tapered off, but I can't think of any others.....

Jay

 

[FOWLROOKIE]

IMO - you just need to get the copper down to about 25% of a full dose or less.

Lots of folks use General Cure. I've checked, and as-dosed, the prazi in it equates to a full dose. However, don't repeat the dose after 48 hours like they say, but rather, dose again 7 to 10 days later (to try and break the fluke life cycle).

Jay

Hello Jay I have a follow up question , I’ve dosed copper power for 30 days, then api general cure, about to do second dose of GC at day 7, after that is where I’m lost…. When do I xfer my flame hawk fish to display tank?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello Jay I have a follow up question , I’ve dosed copper power for 30 days, then api general cure, about to do second dose of GC at day 7, after that is where I’m lost…. When do I xfer my flame hawk fish to display tank?

That depends on the level of risk you are willing to take. Some people call it good and move fish after the second dose of GC. I prefer to hold the fish in the QT with no medications for two additional weeks - just to ensure things are good. Then, some people will hold the fish for two weeks, and ramp the copper back up and move the fish out while in full copper. That helps reduce the chance of any protozoans getting through.

Jay

 

[FOWLROOKIE]

That depends on the level of risk you are willing to take. Some people call it good and move fish after the second dose of GC. I prefer to hold the fish in the QT with no medications for two additional weeks - just to ensure things are good. Then, some people will hold the fish for two weeks, and ramp the copper back up and move the fish out while in full copper. That helps reduce the chance of any protozoans getting through.

Jay

Ok thanks for clarifying this for me

 

[big man]

2021 Quarantine Procedures

Jay Hemdal
David Scarborough



Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before adding the fish to your display tank.

Quarantine tank Requirements:

Tank must be large enough to comfortably handle the number and size of fish for up to 9 weeks.

• Tank should have a filtration system that has completed the nitrogen cycle. Canisters, HOB overflow filters, or appropriately sized sponge filters are acceptable.
• The filtration system must not use carbon or other absorbing/adsorbing filtrants (e.g. Polyfilter) that might absorb copper or medication. NO calcareous rock LIVE or DEAD
• Bare bottom should be used. A saucer with non-absorbing sand can be utilized for wrasses, gobies, blennies or other species which are overly stressed by the bare bottom. Painting the underside of the tank black can also help
• Heater/thermometer
• Removable structure, e.g. PVC pipe may be used to provide hiding places for the fish.
• Ambient light will often be adequate for the QT tank.
• A means to maintain oxygen levels should be available. Air stones and sponge filters are usually adequate.
• A lid should be used to prevent the fish from jumping out of the tank.
• Set salinity level and temperature to the same levels as in your Display Tank.

Days 1 – 2: Observation - let the fish settle in and determine proper diet.

• Set QT temperature to 78 - 80 degrees F.
• Acclimate the new fish to the QT:
  • Measure salinity of the water in which the fish arrived.
  • Adjust salinity in QT to within 2 ppt of the salinity of the water in which the fish arrived.
  • Acclimate the fish to the QT gradually over 45 minutes.
• Observe the fish for any symptoms which might influence the treatment(s) you should administer.
• Determine if the fish are eating adequately to proceed.

Day 2: Begin Copper Treatment

• Add Coppersafe to the QT to achieve a concentration of 2.50 ppm over the course of 24 hours. This can be done in two doses 12 hours apart or multiple smaller doses if you prefer. Coppersafe will not be effective until a concentration over 2.0 ppm is present. A target of 2.50 ppm will allow for fluctuations without the risk of falling below the 2.0 ppm threshold. Hanna Copper checker is the most accurate test to use.
• Never use ammonia removing products or other reducing agents (dechlorinator) when dosing copper. Most products bind copper with an amine to reduce toxicity to the fish. Reducing agents break that bond, releasing free copper that can harm the fish.
• Feed and top off tank water normally.

Days 3 – 32: Continue Copper Treatment

• Monitor copper ppm regularly. If fluctuations do not occur, you can skip day(s), but if the concentration falls below 2.0 ppm, you will need to restart the 30-day count for the copper treatment.
• Monitor water quality parameters as you would for your display tank.
• If the copper or ammonia levels ever exceed guidelines, be prepared to administer water changes to correct the problem.

Day 34: Copper Done

• Begin copper removal through water changes.
• Zeolites such as Cuprisorb may be used to hasten the removal process.
• Carbon is usually too slow or ineffective at removing copper and should not be relied upon without adequate monitoring.

Day 35: Praziquantel Treatment #1

• Confirm copper has been removed adequately to drop the concentration to less than 1 ppm. Copper and Prazi should not be administered simultaneously.
• Add Prazipro to the QT per the instructions on the label.
• Ensure the additional oxygenation source is working. This treatment will potentially reduce the oxygen levels within the QT to critical levels without additional air flow.

Day 40, Day 47: Praziquantel Treatment #2, #3

• Add Prazipro to the QT per the instructions on the label, 7 days apart.

Day 60: New Fish QT complete

• Observe fish for 2 weeks after last prazi dose. Note: many public aquariums do not move fish out of quarantine unless they are in the middle of a full copper treatment. This vastly reduces the risk from Cryptocaryon or Amyloodinium. To use that method, substitute a copper treatment for this 2 week observation period, and move the fish out around day 10.
• Conduct a 5-minute fresh water dip if the fish is of a species particularly susceptible to Neobenedenia flukes. If flukes are detected, reduce QT salinity to 50% and hold for an additional 35 days.
• Confirm salinity and temperature of QT and DT are the same, add fish to DT.

I got a biota yellow tang from my lfs and he doesn't seem have any disease and he's eating very goo on him he's been in quarantine for 2 week but I'm going to wait 2 more weeks just to make sure he is fine. but should I do like hyposalinity or copper just incase. Or should just wait to see if any thing wrong

 

[threebuoys]

I got a biota yellow tang from my lfs and he doesn't seem have any disease and he's eating very goo on him he's been in quarantine for 2 week but I'm going to wait 2 more weeks just to make sure he is fine. but should I do like hyposalinity or copper just incase. Or should just wait to see if any thing wrong

The answer depends on how your LFS handles fish received from biota. If they place them in the same system (i.e., common filtration as other fish in store), and if fish in that system hve not been in QT with copper, then the fish are at risk for possible infection from other untreated fish. I suggest you talk to the LFS to determine how the fish were handled during its stay at their shop.

David

 

[big man]

The answer depends on how your LFS handles fish received from biota. If they place them in the same system (i.e., common filtration as other fish in store), and if fish in that system hve not been in QT with copper, then the fish are at risk for possible infection from other untreated fish. I suggest you talk to the LFS to determine how the fish were handled during its stay at their shop.

David

In the lfs they were In a separate holding tank I'm the back of the shop. I got him as right before they were going to put them on display but I did also get two gobies and they look fine also

 

[threebuoys]

In the lfs they were In a separate holding tank I'm the back of the shop. I got him as right before they were going to put them on display

Unless you already know, you still might want to ask some questions about how the LFS manages their holding tank.

Does the holding tank have copper in it continuously? if not, do they sterilize it before adding fish into it? Is the filtration on the holding tank isolated from the filtration for the display tanks? Most LFS have central filtration systems for multiple tanks, so if one is infected, all are infected. Just trying to cover all bases.

 

[Gophish1982]

@Jay Hemdal
I was basing my QT process on an old post where you had the fish go directly into 1ppm using Copper Power. I just came across this post and see you now suggest Coppersafe (previous posts talked about the poor consistency of coppersafe). Is there a reason you no longer use Copper Power? The previous method also had a slower ramp up to the 2.5 (previously you suggested 2.0 but I guess new strains are beating treatment at 2.0). Oral treatments are totally excluded from your new QT procedure. I had purchased general cure to do that. Are there any reasons why I shouldn’t mix GC with their food for the copper treatment period. Sorry for so many questions. I went through about 10 pages of the new post and didn’t see some of these addressed. I feel like I’m back to square one, having made my plan on your old QT protocol and reading it probably 50 times over the last week, only to find an updated one just 3 days before my fish arrive in the mail!

 

[threebuoys]

@Jay Hemdal
I was basing my QT process on an old post where you had the fish go directly into 1ppm using Copper Power. I just came across this post and see you now suggest Coppersafe (previous posts talked about the poor consistency of coppersafe). Is there a reason you no longer use Copper Power? The previous method also had a slower ramp up to the 2.5 (previously you suggested 2.0 but I guess new strains are beating treatment at 2.0). Oral treatments are totally excluded from your new QT procedure. I had purchased general cure to do that. Are there any reasons why I shouldn’t mix GC with their food for the copper treatment period. Sorry for so many questions. I went through about 10 pages of the new post and didn’t see some of these addressed. I feel like I’m back to square one, having made my plan on your old QT protocol and reading it probably 50 times over the last week, only to find an updated one just 3 days before my fish arrive in the mail!

Jay is traveling today and may not get back as quickly as usual.

Both Copper Power and Copper Safe are proven to work for the QT protocol when following the instructions on the bottle regarding dosage amount. At one time, the Copper Power bottle indicated a dosage of 2.0ppm. It now indicates 2.5ppm. Based on experience, the current protocol also suggests ramp up to 2.5 in 24 hours or even in 12 hours particularly if the fish is displaying crypto symptoms. The copper is not effective until the concentration reaches 2.5 and a heavily infected fish may not survive if the ramp up takes several days. Cupramine can be used also, but its chemistry is much different than Copper Power or Copper Safe and the dosage is much lower at 0.5mg/l .

The two components of General Cure are praziquantel and metronidazole. The current protocol recommends liquid praziquantel to be administered in the water after the copper phase of QT is complete. Its objective is to kill any flukes on the fish. Metro is not needed duing QT and Jay's experience is that most fish will not eat it because it is very bitter. Additionally, preparing medicated food is difficult to do without either under or over dosing the medication.

Good luck with your new fish!