Dinos and Nutrient dosing

[Radicalrob1982]

HI all, thanks for reading.

During my last 5 month battle with Dinos, I've realized that dosing is only making them worse and they aren't going away.

For the last 2 weeks, I quit all dosing, except seachem remediation for supplemental bacteria.

Now, the Dinos seem to be slowly losing the battle. I can clearly see that they are slowly going away.

But what I wanted to ask was, can I buy some easy corals, like softies, so that they can aid in the nutrient absoption for the tank?

Will this help with the Dinos?

 

[CHSUB]

If your goal is a reef tank adding corals is a good idea. With regards to dinoflagellates, the myth of dosing inorganic nutrients to prevent them only exists in the Matrix.

 

[Subsea]

If your goal is a reef tank adding corals is a good idea. With regards to dinoflagellates, the myth of dosing inorganic nutrients to prevent them only exists in the Matrix.

I don’t agree with that. I say, zero phosphate contributes to dinoflagellates. So increasing phosphate would favor desirable algae.

(PDF) Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

PDF | Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

“Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of
symbiotic Dinoflagellates.”

 

[CHSUB]

I don’t agree with that. I say, zero phosphate contributes to dinoflagellates. So increasing phosphate would favor desirable algae.

(PDF) Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

PDF | Enrichment of reef environments with dissolved inorganic nutrients is considered a major threat to the survival of corals living in symbiosis with... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

“Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of
symbiotic Dinoflagellates.”

Nothing in this publication says zero phosphate contributes to dinoflagellates, in fact just to opposite. Low phosphate promotes coral bleaching and a low density of zooxanthellae populations in corals.

 

[Subsea]

Nothing in this publication says zero phosphate contributes to dinoflagellates, in fact just to opposite. Low phosphate promotes coral bleaching and a low density of zooxanthellae populations in corals.

Dig a little deeper. Also it’s difficult to seperate inorganic from organic sources.

PS: I am not strong enough in organic chemistry, to debate this. Often enough, in our captive reef tanks , DOC is a culprit and as hobbiest, that is difficult to measure.

All to often, hobbiest attempt to run ULNS and as a result when inorganic phosphate shows zero opportunistic Dinoflaggelets thrive and I see Cynobacteria more often when inorganic nitrogen shows zero.

 

[CHSUB]

Dig a little deeper. Also it’s difficult to seperate inorganic from organic sources.

PS: I am not strong enough in organic chemistry, to debate this. Often enough, in our captive reef tans, DOC is a culprit and as hobbiest, that is difficult to measure.

I read it very carefully, imo. It list one example in Jamaica Bay where a high n and low p caused bleaching in corals and a macro algae dominated environment, but that is an imbalance not a deficiency. I have seen this study before and imo doesn’t make me think any differently about problem dinoflagellate in a reef aquarium. Coral health can be an indicator of low P, a tank overgrown with problem algae is not an indicator of low nutrient availability.

 

[Subsea]

I read it very carefully, imo. It list one example in Jamaica Bay where a high n and low p caused bleaching in corals and a macro algae dominated environment, but that is an imbalance not a deficiency. I have seen this study before and imo doesn’t make me think any differently about problem dinoflagellate in a reef aquarium. Coral health can be an indicator of low P, a tank overgrown with problem algae is not an indicator of low nutrient availability.

When I said dig deeper, it was not in this article.

However, there are way too many variables to die on this hill.

PS:
“Coral health can be an indicator of low P, a tank overgrown with problem algae is not an indicator of low nutrient availability.”

What determines problem algae as opposed to good algae (zooanthellia).?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think it is very clear to me that one proven way to beat dinos is to out compete them for the real estate they occupy. That can be done in many ways, such as adding bacteria or encouraging competitors by ensuring there is adequate N and P and maybe silicate for green algae, diatoms, bacteria, and other organisms.

Reducing nutrients has a poor record of success because dinos are able to thrive at nutrient levels lower than most competitors.

There are also other things that can work with dinos, such as a blackout and a uv, although combining all these methods at once may be somewhat counterproductive.

 

[geologeek]

In 30yrs of reef keeping I have only been unfortunate enough to have to battle Dino's once. And this plague only came about when I bottomed out phosphates due to a health related spasm causing me to add more lanthanum chloride than I intended.

The only way out of this nightmare was to bring phosphates back up and dosing my way out of it with silicates.

Snotty Dino's gone and now I have a load of beautiful sponges of all colours everywhere I look.

 

[Subsea]

In 30yrs of reef keeping I have only been unfortunate enough to have to battle Dino's once. And this plague only came about when I bottomed out phosphates due to a health related spasm causing me to add more lanthanum chloride than I intended.

The only way out of this nightmare was to bring phosphates back up and dosing my way out of it with silicates.

Snotty Dino's gone and now I have a load of beautiful sponges of all colours everywhere I look.

Show us your sponges.

I just got this Orange Tree Sponge.

 

[geologeek]

Show us your sponges.

I just got this Orange Tree Sponge.

Yeah, your just showing off.......

I'm lucky if my LFS has a resin SpongeBob square pants ornament!

Mine are just plain old home grown yellow, black or translucent/white, but have all grown rampantly in the last month.

Previously I only ever saw a few patches of yellow on the base of a couple of pieces of live rock.

 

[Subsea]

Yeah, your just showing off.......

I'm lucky if my LFS has a resin SpongeBob square pants ornament!

Mine are just plain old home grown yellow, black or translucent/white, but have all grown rampantly in the last month.

Previously I only ever saw a few patches of yellow on the base of a couple of pieces of live rock.

I do have an advantage with ornamental sponge availability from Florida & Caribbean vendors as individuals specimens and on diver collected live rock.
The real success is to grow them. Kudos to your reefkeeping skills to grow them up.

Check out what GulfCoast EcoSystem offers:

<head> <title>Macroalgae For Marine Reef Aquariums: Red Finger Sponge

<head> <title>Macroalgae For Marine Reef Aquariums: Yellow Ball Sponge

I find the yellow ball sponge to be the hardiest of all. In high nutrient systems that I run, diatoms often grow on their surface. While I do use a toothbrush to clean them up, I prefer to use small blue leg hermit crabs from the Caribbean.

PS: The white translucent are most likely cryptic sponges whose biochemistry is unique in how it processes DOC & POC. Also, consider that POC consist of bacteria, larvae & pathogens. In a Dutch research paper that I will try to find & link, the amount of POC removed from water was equivalent to doubling its biomass every 2 hours except for the sloughing off of carbon rich detritus which feeds the microbial food web.

 

[Subsea]

​

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article-abstract/68/7/487/5042165?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Abstract​

“Some of the fundamental drivers of reef functioning are being rewritten through progress in understanding nutrient cycling. The sponge loop, described in 2013, revealed that some cryptic sponges can convert dissolved organic carbon (DOC) into detritus. In subsequent studies, researchers proposed that sponges and seaweeds could mutually reinforce their abundance by utilizing each other's waste products, thereby helping to suppress coral recovery. We build on these ideas, including the provision of a new but related hypothesis to explain the reinforcement of coral–algal phase shifts: Detritus and DOC resulting from fleshy algae reduce light penetration and increase the stress on corals, particularly in terms of calcification. We then consider the wider ecosystem implications of nutrient cycling and arrive at some novel conclusions. In particular, we propose that the combination of higher sponge biomass, which generates detritus, with the relative paucity of detritivory should generate a surplus of detritus on Caribbean reefs compared with that of the Indo-Pacific. New studies are needed to quantify the generality of the sponge loop and to track the fate of detritus to determine whether there is a surplus in the Caribbean. Although Charles Darwin identified enigmatic aspects of the nutritional status of coral reefs, this research field continues to surprise and redefine how we view the dynamics of this complex ecosystem.”

 

[CHSUB]

I think it is very clear to me that one proven way to beat dinos is to out compete them for the real estate they occupy

I will agree and imo this is the best way to beat anything one desires to limit in a reef aquarium.

Reducing nutrients has a poor record of success because dinos are able to thrive at nutrient levels lower than most competitors.

Here is where I find a nuance of disagreement. A properly setup and maintained reef aquarium will never have a nutrient problem regardless of what a hobby test kit reads. I reject the notion that our glass box needs to diverge or differ greatly from natural reefs with regards to nutrients. I once experienced a nutrient deficiency but it was diagnose by pale, unhealthy corals and a lack of any algae; not a mysterious super algae that over took the aquarium without nutrients. The Healthy Reef Aquarium needs an adequate, healthy, fed fish population; this alone will provide all the ‘inorganic’ nutrients needed and in most cases an over abundance of nutrients. The focus of reducing/increasing nutrients is far down my list of reasons why.

Edit: added ‘inorganic’, because I feed corals directly, not their zooxanthellae. I let the fish do that.

 

[Subsea]

@CHSUB
Your definition of properly setup & maintained may well produce stellar results. However, most hobbiest will never achieve that.

After 55 years of Reefing, I run my systems as you describe.

 

[CHSUB]

What determines problem algae as opposed to good algae (zooanthellia).?

I will remove “problem”, because I have experienced overgrowth by other organisms.

 

[geologeek]

​

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article-abstract/68/7/487/5042165?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Abstract​

“Some of the fundamental drivers of reef functioning are being rewritten through progress in understanding nutrient cycling. The sponge loop, described in 2013, revealed that some cryptic sponges can convert dissolved organic carbon (DOC) into detritus. In subsequent studies, researchers proposed that sponges and seaweeds could mutually reinforce their abundance by utilizing each other's waste products, thereby helping to suppress coral recovery. We build on these ideas, including the provision of a new but related hypothesis to explain the reinforcement of coral–algal phase shifts: Detritus and DOC resulting from fleshy algae reduce light penetration and increase the stress on corals, particularly in terms of calcification. We then consider the wider ecosystem implications of nutrient cycling and arrive at some novel conclusions. In particular, we propose that the combination of higher sponge biomass, which generates detritus, with the relative paucity of detritivory should generate a surplus of detritus on Caribbean reefs compared with that of the Indo-Pacific. New studies are needed to quantify the generality of the sponge loop and to track the fate of detritus to determine whether there is a surplus in the Caribbean. Although Charles Darwin identified enigmatic aspects of the nutritional status of coral reefs, this research field continues to surprise and redefine how we view the dynamics of this complex ecosystem.”

Thanks for the research, always appreciate it when people share their own rabbit holes.......I'll head down that particular warren later today.

I'm envious of your ability to acquire diverse specimens and happy for you. I unfortunately do not have such opportunities as it is near impossible for me to even get quality live rock anymore and will have to wait until the summer when I can get back home to Wales and can get to a place called rocks'n'critters in Barry who are the only ones that now carry proper live rock.

Thanks for your input and hope you and yours are keeping well!

 

[Radicalrob1982]

Thanks all for the info on the topic.

My current nitrate level on the tank is zero, but my PO4 is 0.02. Which is kind of low.

Would it be worth dosing P04 at this time, or if I am seeing progress, would it be safer to just let it runs its course? Been battling this for 5 months. I do know that this is not a sprint and rather a marathon lol.

 

[Subsea]

Thanks all for the info on the topic.

My current nitrate level on the tank is zero, but my PO4 is 0.02. Which is kind of low.

Would it be worth dosing P04 at this time, or if I am seeing progress, would it be safer to just let it runs its course? Been battling this for 5 months. I do know that this is not a sprint and rather a marathon lol.

I never let phosphate get low. Why is nitrate zero? Is this the 25G tank you started in August? What’s in the tank and what are you doing for nutrient management.

Either feed more or do less nutrient export.

 

[Radicalrob1982]

I believe the Dino’s, corals and the little good algae I have are depleting the nitrates. This would also include the denitrifying bacteria in the rocks. I used the rocks from my old system. But they sat out for a couple days and had a lot of die off. I had to do an emergency replacement as my previous 20 long sprung a leak.

I dosed consistently for a month and tested practically every day. The dosing made the Dino’s bloom more and were not getting better.

Currently have 2 clowns and a bi color blenny. This should produce plenty of nitrate for a tank this size. Possibly a lot undetectable as it’s getting used quickly. I also feed daily.

I tried uv for a month and it initially helped a bit, but then went stale. Only thing I haven’t tried is a black out.

I’ve seen a nice different this week. I can actually see quite a few patches are now white sand and it seems the Dino’s are fading. The best progress I’ve made so far is doing nothing.

I will try just dosing po4 alone and see if the Dino’s get worse or get better.

They were originally everywhere but now the Dino’s are more or less localized to the sand bed. For clean up crew I have a tuxedo urchin and a turbo snail with a couple of ninja hermits.