Disregard for reefing guidelines

[WVNed]

Thank you for posting this but begs the obvious question:

Why is this information on another site? Why isn’t this on R2R?

This thread complains about people not following the reefing guidelines but these guidelines are published somewhere else?

So you expect them to have everything you want to know here for your convenience. Before you want to know it.

A car has lots of buttons and switches and controls that can be set in a huge number of combinations.
Only a tiny number of those combinations will allow it to be driven to a store to buy some milk.

All these people posting about a million ways top do things don't understand this yet.

 

[Alaeriel]

What do you MEAN I can't keep my orangeshoulder tang in my 20 gallon tank forever? Its so cute and yellow and I ~like~ it in there. The fish should realize my desires and accommodate me.

 

[howaboutme]

Thank you for posting this but begs the obvious question:

Why is this information on another site? Why isn’t this on R2R?

This thread complains about people not following the reefing guidelines but these guidelines are published somewhere else?

R2R is too new so what is posted (by us) is what is posted, nothing more.

To me, we are just in a different world. We are in a world of instant gratification. That is totally contradictory to this hobby (or success in this hobby). Why do you think 3/4 of posts each day are all the same just worded differently? Do people really think responding to those question with "what are your parameters" will help? Most experienced reefers don't need that info. It's not wrong, just different. R2R is set up to make money, nothing wrong w/ it. I sort of enjoy reading a lot of it myself as opposed to being put off (which happens too).

 

[WVNed]

90% of the questions asked here could be answered by reading a sticky in the appropriate section.

People are used to asking their phone for info and getting it instantly with zero effort.
They are just using this place the same way.

As this place derives an economic benefit from the amount of traffic it sees and how many clicks it generates why would the powers at be try to change this behavior?

 

[PeterC99]

So you expect them to have everything you want to know here for your convenience. Before you want to know it.

A car has lots of buttons and switches and controls that can be set in a huge number of combinations.
Only a tiny number of those combinations will allow it to be driven to a store to buy some milk.

All these people posting about a million ways top do things don't understand this yet.

Not sure I agree with car analogy. Many different makes and features with aquariums. And many different ways to operate them.

Where’s the start button on an aquarium?

 

[PeterC99]

R2R is too new so what is posted (by us) is what is posted, nothing more.

To me, we are just in a different world. We are in a world of instant gratification. That is totally contradictory to this hobby (or success in this hobby). Why do you think 3/4 of posts each day are all the same just worded differently? Do people really think responding to those question with "what are your parameters" will help? Most experienced reefers don't need that info. It's not wrong, just different. R2R is set up to make money, nothing wrong w/ it. I sort of enjoy reading a lot of it myself as opposed to being put off (which happens too).

Agree with the instant gratification but are we the ones enabling it and then complaining when people don’t follow “unofficial” reefing guidelines?

 

[HWEP]

Don't get me started. Even today, i saw a post on facebook i honestly thought was a troll until i read further. No specific size given, but ABSOLUTELY a nano tank, wasn't bigger than mine which is 30gal. Tank riddled with OLD algae from their tropical tank, i.e, never cleaned it and it has a regal tang in with about 4 other fish.

I questioned the tang being in that tank and they didn't know what a tang was, they just went and bought a load of fish from "the fish place". It then came about that the tank wasn't remotely cycled and they had no clue what they were doing.

It was a disaster of a post. I'm relatively new to the salty side but i've done my research and have been raised on rare types of fish (red belly piranha for one).

I think LFS have alot to blame. Some around me will snatch your money without even asking if you own a fish tank yet.

 

[Dan_P]

Anyone else seeing a dramatic rise of ppl that are new to the hobby and disregarding reefing guidelines?

Surely one would never go buy a rare type of dog without reading in depth on how to care for it, train it.... maybe ppl do just buy and figure it out later. What do i know?

I feel like a person in a Motorcycle Forum called Bike2Bike...with questions like,

"Is it okay to use first gear up until 65mph? And why does black smoke come out of my exhaust when I do this?"

"Can I ride backwards on my Harley and steer with my arms behind me? I wanna see where I've been"

I'm not understanding the total lack of discipline (common sense if you will) when entering a hobby, when you obviously know you have to do a lot of research for it.... yet a lot of ppl just seem to be winging-it

I think winging it is normal. I will suggest that the business side of the hobby is encouraging this behavior with ridiculous claims about the equipment and additives they sell. “Anyone can be successful by automating and dosing“. This is not a bad business model. Spending is very large to start a saltwater aquarium and then it levels off once the tank is filled. Drawing in new customers is lucrative. Drawing in customers that have chronic problems with their aquarium more so.

 

[LittleFidel]

I'm frustrated with ppl pulling the trigger on purchases without taking the time to research what they should be doing BEFORE the sale.... then belly achin' problems, TBH.

You don't see me buying a Ferrari (just bc I have the money for the sale) but then saying a month later, "holy crap, an oil change and tire rotation is $1,000 ?!?".... "wait, $10,000 a year in insurance? I can't afford that"

I'd kinda would have all that figured out beforehand

Not thinking things through is a sign of an immaturity lifestyle TBH

Is it because you’re jealous you don’t have the same disposable income as the people who wing it?

 

[LRT]

I'm still waiting to see this one size fits all god list of rules we are all supposed to adhere to.
Rules where only created and invented to be broken either way. Its our nature.
Humans fail. We make mistakes and learn from them or we dont. Without WWII the V2 rocket wouldn't have been invented and space exploration may not be possible. Howard Hughes crashed 4 times all the while totally innovating and changing aviation rules and history. Always think outside of the box and push the limits no matter what. One gift we have been given that nobody can take is creativity. Without it we would be driving around on blocks:)
Fact of the matter is every reef is different, the hobby is evolving and the rules are changing everyday. Just look how far its come in last 20 years and how many of the old rules just simply don't apply anymore.
R2R is a forum. Without the questions R2R doesn't exist.

Since we go through this stir the pot thing from Zoa What almost monthly now id love to see at least 1 picture of a reef, healthy fish or something from him or I just can't take any of this serious.
Or take a look at this picture Zoa and tell me what rules haven't been broken in this 24hr instacycled and fully stocked tank? Pretty sure I've broken just about every rule possible in this tank in last 4 months.

 

[Forty-Two]

I'm still waiting to see this one size fits all god list of rules we are all supposed to adhere to.
Rules where only created and invented to be broken either way. Its our nature.
Humans fail. We make mistakes and learn from them or we dont. Without WWII the V2 rocket wouldn't have been invented and space exploration may not be possible. Howard Hughes crashed 4 times all the while totally innovating and changing aviation rules and history. Always think outside of the box and push the limits no matter what. One gift we have been given that nobody can take is creativity. Without it we would be driving around on blocks:)
Fact of the matter is every reef is different, the hobby is evolving and the rules are changing everyday. Just look how far its come in last 20 years and how many of the old rules just simply don't apply anymore.
R2R is a forum. Without the questions R2R doesn't exist.

Since we go through this stir the pot thing from Zoa What almost monthly now id love to see at least 1 picture of a reef, healthy fish or something from him or I just can't take any of this serious.
Or take a look at this picture Zoa and tell me what rules haven't been broken in this 24hr instacycled and fully stocked tank? Pretty sure I've broken just about every rule possible in this tank in last 4 months.

This is incorrect on so many different levels

 

[workhz]

looks like you have a decent amount of live rock, minimal fish and no finicky sps?

I guess think of it as a recipe vs a rule? Some foods are a pain to make and every step has to be exact and some are as easy as boiling an egg. What you put in the tank and what you hope survives kinda dictates what you need to do for long term sustainability.

Definitely an instant gratification world and don't discount covid/wfh and everyone trying out new hobbies.

 

[LRT]

looks like you have a decent amount of live rock, minimal fish and no finicky sps?

I guess think of it as a recipe vs a rule? Some foods are a pain to make and every step has to be exact and some are as easy as boiling an egg. What you put in the tank and what you hope survives kinda dictates what you need to do for long term sustainability.

Definitely an instant gratification world and don't discount covid/wfh and everyone trying out new hobbies.

80 gallon tank. Over a 100 corals. Some sps. Few of them super finicky.
4 fish. Healthy babies in propogation some of which where taken right before tank was stocked, healed and naturally making babies on there own now.
Brs did a 48hr tank same way. Plenty of others do it on regular basis.
I have made my share of costly mistakes in this hobby. Never would have learned from them if I didn't is the point.
Glad brs pushed the envelope I may have never tried to push it a little further:D

 

[LRT]

This is incorrect on so many different levels

Please do tell?
On Edit id really love to hear your take im here to learn and willing to admit when im wrong.
My reefing journey started back in 98. Back then I dont think dry rock existed. Led weren't being used to my knowledge. Fully automated testing and dosing technology wasn't being used at least that im aware of. If we literally didn't steal the man that innovated rocketry and super accelerate our rocket program we probably wouldn't have made it to the moon as fast as we did. Although I do believe we would have gotten there eventually.
Pretty sure Hughes crashed at least 4 times that we know of. I could be wrong because there are probably more. Def can't take his innovation of aviation away.

 

[Forty-Two]

Please do tell?
On Edit id really love to hear your take im here to learn and willing to admit when im wrong.
My reefing journey started back in 98. Back then I dont think dry rock existed. Led weren't being used to my knowledge. Fully automated testing and dosing technology wasn't being used at least that im aware of. If we literally didn't steal the man that innovated rocketry and super accelerate our rocket program we probably wouldn't have made it to the moon as fast as we did. Although I do believe we would have gotten there eventually.
Pretty sure Hughes crashed at least 4 times that we know of. I could be wrong because there are probably more. Def can't take his innovation of aviation away.

sure. I suppose I owe you that given the brevity of my response.

“Rules were created to be broken” - this is not true. There are many rules that we’ve agree to as a society that must be adhered to. Many of these come from the Torah - whether you disagree with it or not is irrelevant. In fact rules and guidelines is what most people seek and need to feel secure. We also have a general rule in this hobby to do our best not to kill the creatures we take care of. If someone can’t be bothered to do basic research before plunking down fish into a tank that will kill them - that makes them a fool. An irresponsible one that has no business attempting to take care of other life forms.

Secondly - re V2 rocket; there was careful experimentation. As repugnant as the ****’s were - they went about it in a methodical fashion. They didn’t simply throw some fuel into metal, slap on TNT and light it on fire. The same with Howard Hughes. I’m not an expert on his life - but I’m going to bet he did a lot of research and careful experimentation before trying new designs and taking some calculated risks.

And this is the point the OP is making. Far too many people jump in - slap some things together, kill the fish and corals they bought and then ask for aimless help without so much as reading a single sentence on the topic of how to keep a reef tank. There are huge amounts of info out there on the inter webs regarding this topic. 90% of their questions are already answered - and in many cases could have saved the lives of the creatures they chose to try to care for.

Yes - mistakes will happen. We’ll run into situations we don’t have an answer to and we didn’t plan for - and that is expected. I’m talking about willful neglect and ignorance/laziness/selfishness of which I see a lot of out on the internet relating to reef tanks.

And btw - I don’t see willful neglect when I look at your tank. I see a guy who has done his research and didn’t just wing it. Sure maybe you took some unnecessary risks - but you had an educated approach with your method. And therein lies the heart of this topic - I believe the Op is talking about people who can’t even be bothered to do a google search on how to setup a reef tank or what to do.

 

[Jekyl]

I blame Disney. Finding Nemo has killed more Blue Tangs and anemone than probably any other source.

 

[Just John]

I don't understand why everyone acts like using bottled bacteria is some sort of sin. People can add a fish or two the same day and not wait ages with an empty tank. The bacterial mix is not right? It'll sort itself out. I have never seen a post on here saying someone regretted adding bottled bacteria to jump start things. What's the problem?

 

[anthonygf]

I'm frustrated with ppl pulling the trigger on purchases without taking the time to research what they should be doing BEFORE the sale.... then belly achin' problems, TBH.

You don't see me buying a Ferrari (just bc I have the money for the sale) but then saying a month later, "holy crap, an oil change and tire rotation is $1,000 ?!?".... "wait, $10,000 a year in insurance? I can't afford that"

I'd kinda would have all that figured out beforehand

Not thinking things through is a sign of an immaturity lifestyle TBH

With our situation today alot of people are looking for instant gratification, because of boredom maybe and just don't really think about it. I have been keeping fresh water cichlids for 40 years, then the urge started I wanted to go reefing. Well before I jumped in I did a lot of research, reading books etc. for more than a year. I started my reef 7 years ago with live rock and went super well for 4 years until I upgraded.

 

[Moose.Jy]

I am unsure, as someone who is new to the hobby I understand the concern.
I would like to voice though that all not all people learn the same way

My tank is still sitting dry even though I bought it 5 months ago because I'm trying to collect the right equipment and have been moving alot.

I have been heavily researching the hobby and all things saltwater and reef for over a year, with minor research done a few times a number of years before.
However even with all that research and nights spent obsessing over looking at every detail about the set up, the hobby, the reefing ways.... I have no clue what I'm going to do once water hits my tank.
The very idea actually starting scares the crap out of me because I can't really learn from all that random information I read. I am a learn by doing person if what I'm learning is not action based it will never stick. I've read and re-read hundreds of threads, websites, how to's, and watched ALL of the videos as they are at least a visual for me. However until I start to touch it with my own hands all of that will ultimately mean nothing to my brain.

So much of what is out there just contradicts what you read right before, to a point of madness making you question if there can possibly really be a right way. Sometimes that string of madness really makes us ask dumb questions. Even right now I can't figure out if a UV sterilizer defeats the purpose of having a refugium. If I doesn't should the sterilizer be on a separate line or system? And if it does which is better to invest in?
Dumb questions? Maybe! But some of us can't help what passes over our heads, or doesn't seem clear when there's so much information turning around out there.

I know people messing up something that you work so hard on can be annoying, but if noone new ever tries how quickly would the hobby itself die off? Everyone who tries something new to them is going to make mistakes but noone has ever succeeded without failure.

 

[LRT]

sure. I suppose I owe you that given the brevity of my response.

“Rules were created to be broken” - this is not true. There are many rules that we’ve agree to as a society that must be adhered to. Many of these come from the Torah - whether you disagree with it or not is irrelevant. In fact rules and guidelines is what most people seek and need to feel secure. We also have a general rule in this hobby to do our best not to kill the creatures we take care of. If someone can’t be bothered to do basic research before plunking down fish into a tank that will kill them - that makes them a fool. An irresponsible one that has no business attempting to take care of other life forms.

Secondly - re V2 rocket; there was careful experimentation. As repugnant as the ****’s were - they went about it in a methodical fashion. They didn’t simply throw some fuel into metal, slap on TNT and light it on fire. The same with Howard Hughes. I’m not an expert on his life - but I’m going to bet he did a lot of research and careful experimentation before trying new designs and taking some calculated risks.

And this is the point the OP is making. Far too many people jump in - slap some things together, kill the fish and corals they bought and then ask for aimless help without so much as reading a single sentence on the topic of how to keep a reef tank. There are huge amounts of info out there on the inter webs regarding this topic. 90% of their questions are already answered - and in many cases could have saved the lives of the creatures they chose to try to care for.

Yes - mistakes will happen. We’ll run into situations we don’t have an answer to and we didn’t plan for - and that is expected. I’m talking about willful neglect and ignorance/laziness/selfishness of which I see a lot of out on the internet relating to reef tanks.

And btw - I don’t see willful neglect when I look at your tank. I see a guy who has done his research and didn’t just wing it. Sure maybe you took some unnecessary risks - but you had an educated approach with your method. And therein lies the heart of this topic - I believe the Op is talking about people who can’t even be bothered to do a google search on how to setup a reef tank or what to do.

Thank you for response. I do totally agree with you on most things but respectfully say I agree to disagree on certain points and that's ok.
Getting back to topic of thread.
I have to stick with my original stance that until OP posts a legitimate picture of a tank, healthy corals or at least something productive showing he can at least keep a reef in general. Im not going to be able to take any of it serious and continue to call it like I'm sure many of us here see it. That these are not threads looking for anything constructive to come of them, hes looking to push buttons and get people fired up and thats totally all good he got what he wanted now please give us some lol. Just want one pic lol