Fish Dying Within Hours

[tim7711]

Hello fellow reefers,

Scratching my head trying to solve this issue. I bought 2 clownfish from ORA (BRS) which arrived at 12PM today. By 2PM the fish were displaying signs of stress. At 8PM one of the two fish is dead. Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated!

I have attached 3 videos. With times of 12PM (arrival - swimming freely). 4PM signs of distress. 8PM one alive. I did see both fish breathing heavily when they first arrived, but thought it was stress from transport. The alarm bells went off around 2 PM when this did not slow down.

In the interim, I did do an RODI dip of both the fish twice, thinking of Velvet unfortunately did not help one of the fish.

This isn't my first tank, and I have kept a prior tank for 3-4 years without issues before disassembling. No old parts were used from prior build for this tank. I've checked for cracks in equipment and the heater is fine. No CUC at this time.

Data
Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: 0
Salinity: 35 ppm

Fish were acclimated for approximately 15-20 mins with water being added from my tank to the bags and temp assimilated before being added to DT

Tank Details
20g AIO Nuvo
Running Apex A3 with ATO and DOS water changes
Cycled tanked over 3-4 week period using Dr. Tim's
Live Rock
UV Light
Nero 3 wavemaker
AI Prime 16 x 2

 

[tim7711]

Most recent from 10:30PM. It's holding itself to the return AIO drain gasping for air.

I increased aeration to the surface after the video of the return pump nozzles

UPDATE (11PM): He didnt make it :(

 

[gsxrshane]

IMO the returns needed to be pointed higher towards the surface. Doesn’t really look like there’s any oxygen exchange going on with no surface agitation.

I see that you posted you changed it but may have already been too late.

Wish it had a better end result.

Maybe someone from #fishmedic could chime in for the future.

 

[ToxicPaly]

You may have caused gill damage when you opened the bag and allowed oxygen in and co2 out causing the ph to rise. This can make the ammonia very toxic if the fish aren’t removed from the shipping water/bag in a timely fashion.

 

[tim7711]

IMO the returns needed to be pointed higher towards the surface. Doesn’t really look like there’s any oxygen exchange going on with no surface agitation.

I see that you posted you changed it but may have already been too late.

Wish it had a better end result.

Maybe someone from #fishmedic could chime in for the future.

I did make the change earlier in the day with directing the noozles.

You may have caused gill damage when you opened the bag and allowed oxygen in and co2 out causing the ph to rise. This can make the ammonia very toxic if the fish aren’t removed from the shipping water/bag in a timely fashion.

Do you think this was velvet? There's no other living creatures in the tank prior to placement of the new fish...

 

[Paul B]

.Looks like ammonia poisoning to me.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

Why are the nitrates zero on your tank? Did you ever have any nitrates? How did you cycle the tank? Agree it sounds like ammonia poisoning, either from the shipping bag or from your tank.

 

[W31Olds]

This is most likely osmotic shock from a rapid increase in salinity. Did you have any information about the salinity of the bag water? Your salinity is 35 PPM and very few vendors ship at that and the rapid low to high transition is big trouble with a 15 -20 minute acclimation. 2 rapid Rodi dips are also not recommended as they are also stressful on acclimating fish and velvet is highly unlikely with ORA fish right out of the bag.

 

[Garf]

Salinity: 35 ppm

35 ppt, I assume. How are you calibrating your chosen salinity checking device?

 

[threebuoys]

Hello fellow reefers,

Scratching my head trying to solve this issue. I bought 2 clownfish from ORA (BRS) which arrived at 12PM today. By 2PM the fish were displaying signs of stress. At 8PM one of the two fish is dead. Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated!

I have attached 3 videos. With times of 12PM (arrival - swimming freely). 4PM signs of distress. 8PM one alive. I did see both fish breathing heavily when they first arrived, but thought it was stress from transport. The alarm bells went off around 2 PM when this did not slow down.

In the interim, I did do an RODI dip of both the fish twice, thinking of Velvet unfortunately did not help one of the fish.

This isn't my first tank, and I have kept a prior tank for 3-4 years without issues before disassembling. No old parts were used from prior build for this tank. I've checked for cracks in equipment and the heater is fine. No CUC at this time.

Data
Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: 0
Salinity: 35 ppm

Fish were acclimated for approximately 15-20 mins with water being added from my tank to the bags and temp assimilated before being added to DT

Tank Details
20g AIO Nuvo
Running Apex A3 with ATO and DOS water changes
Cycled tanked over 3-4 week period using Dr. Tim's
Live Rock
UV Light
Nero 3 wavemaker
AI Prime 16 x 2

Did you measure the salinity of the water in which the fish were shipped?
The rapidity of their demise suggests water problems of some type. Many vendors ship fish at a lower salinity than our normal target of 35ppm ppt. Is your salinity measurement equipment properly calibrated? If the fish arrived at say 1.19sg and you placed them in 1.26 sg, shock could have been easily induced. Adjustment to that big of a difference should take a couple of days as opposed to 20 minutes.

Please be aware that freshwater or RO/DI dips are themselves stressors to the fish. Never is it a treatment. The only value of such a dip is if it will give the fish relief from physical pain brought on by whatever ailment the fish is experiencing. In this case though, I doubt it had any positive or negative impact on the outcome.

Was the fish breathing rapidly when they were first put in the tank? I couldn't tell from the first video. The other two videos clearly show rapid breathing. I doubt the problem was a lack of oxygen. Two small fish in a tank that size would not overload the available oxygen.

As others suggest, the problem may have been ammonia. I have to believe something toxic in the water.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello fellow reefers,

Scratching my head trying to solve this issue. I bought 2 clownfish from ORA (BRS) which arrived at 12PM today. By 2PM the fish were displaying signs of stress. At 8PM one of the two fish is dead. Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated!

I have attached 3 videos. With times of 12PM (arrival - swimming freely). 4PM signs of distress. 8PM one alive. I did see both fish breathing heavily when they first arrived, but thought it was stress from transport. The alarm bells went off around 2 PM when this did not slow down.

In the interim, I did do an RODI dip of both the fish twice, thinking of Velvet unfortunately did not help one of the fish.

This isn't my first tank, and I have kept a prior tank for 3-4 years without issues before disassembling. No old parts were used from prior build for this tank. I've checked for cracks in equipment and the heater is fine. No CUC at this time.

Data
Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: 0
Salinity: 35 ppm

Fish were acclimated for approximately 15-20 mins with water being added from my tank to the bags and temp assimilated before being added to DT

Tank Details
20g AIO Nuvo
Running Apex A3 with ATO and DOS water changes
Cycled tanked over 3-4 week period using Dr. Tim's
Live Rock
UV Light
Nero 3 wavemaker
AI Prime 16 x 2

How did you acclimate these fish and for how long?
With acclimation, fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia which lowers the pH of the water in the bag, and in turn makes the ammonia toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia which then raises the pH of the water in the bag, and in turn makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish.
Sometimes, the fish will die right in the bag

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello fellow reefers,

Scratching my head trying to solve this issue. I bought 2 clownfish from ORA (BRS) which arrived at 12PM today. By 2PM the fish were displaying signs of stress. At 8PM one of the two fish is dead. Any help or ideas would be greatly appreciated!

I have attached 3 videos. With times of 12PM (arrival - swimming freely). 4PM signs of distress. 8PM one alive. I did see both fish breathing heavily when they first arrived, but thought it was stress from transport. The alarm bells went off around 2 PM when this did not slow down.

In the interim, I did do an RODI dip of both the fish twice, thinking of Velvet unfortunately did not help one of the fish.

This isn't my first tank, and I have kept a prior tank for 3-4 years without issues before disassembling. No old parts were used from prior build for this tank. I've checked for cracks in equipment and the heater is fine. No CUC at this time.

Data
Ammonia: 0
Nitrates: 0
Salinity: 35 ppm

Fish were acclimated for approximately 15-20 mins with water being added from my tank to the bags and temp assimilated before being added to DT

Tank Details
20g AIO Nuvo
Running Apex A3 with ATO and DOS water changes
Cycled tanked over 3-4 week period using Dr. Tim's
Live Rock
UV Light
Nero 3 wavemaker
AI Prime 16 x 2

Generally, when fish die within 24 of being shipped, it was caused by transport stress and/or acclimation issues.

Do you know the salinity that the fish arrived in

Here is an article I posted on proper acclimation methods:

Acclimation Methods

Acclimating Animals to Aquariums Jay F. Hemdal c.2020 Introduction to acclimation techniques Most beginning aquarists hear that they must “acclimate” any new animals they add to their aquarium. Acclimation (sometimes termed...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[W31Olds]

I speculated osmotic shock because he only acclimated them for 15-20 minutes. Could the ammonia rise that rapidly in that amount of time with the dilution of tank water being added to the bag?

 

[fishyjoes]

I speculated osmotic shock because he only acclimated them for 15-20 minutes. Could the ammonia rise that rapidly in that amount of time with the dilution of tank water being added to the bag?

It's not necessarily ammonia increase, as it is conversion due to ph change (due to gas exchange removing built up CO2 when the bag is opened after a long time being closed)

This video is worth your time and I highly recommend

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I speculated osmotic shock because he only acclimated them for 15-20 minutes. Could the ammonia rise that rapidly in that amount of time with the dilution of tank water being added to the bag?

If the fish were shipped overnight, ammonia builds up. At the same time, carbon dioxide builds up in the bag reducing the pH. That renders the ammonia less toxic. Then, during acclimation, the pH rises faster than the ammonia is being diluted, causing the ammonia to become toxic. There could also be an osmotic issue as well - marine fish don’t handle salinity rises well.

 

[tim7711]

If the fish were shipped overnight, ammonia builds up. At the same time, carbon dioxide builds up in the bag reducing the pH. That renders the ammonia less toxic. Then, during acclimation, the pH rises faster than the ammonia is being diluted, causing the ammonia to become toxic. There could also be an osmotic issue as well - marine fish don’t handle salinity rises well.

Wouldn't the tank show an ammonia spike, however? And I didn't take note of the salinity of the transported water.

 

[tim7711]

Did you measure the salinity of the water in which the fish were shipped?
The rapidity of their demise suggests water problems of some type. Many vendors ship fish at a lower salinity than our normal target of 35ppm ppt. Is your salinity measurement equipment properly calibrated? If the fish arrived at say 1.19sg and you placed them in 1.26 sg, shock could have been easily induced. Adjustment to that big of a difference should take a couple of days as opposed to 20 minutes.

Please be aware that freshwater or RO/DI dips are themselves stressors to the fish. Never is it a treatment. The only value of such a dip is if it will give the fish relief from physical pain brought on by whatever ailment the fish is experiencing. In this case though, I doubt it had any positive or negative impact on the outcome.

Was the fish breathing rapidly when they were first put in the tank? I couldn't tell from the first video. The other two videos clearly show rapid breathing. I doubt the problem was a lack of oxygen. Two small fish in a tank that size would not overload the available oxygen.

As others suggest, the problem may have been ammonia. I have to believe something toxic in the water.

Yes, they were breathing heavily when introduced in the tank

 

[tim7711]

Why are the nitrates zero on your tank? Did you ever have any nitrates? How did you cycle the tank? Agree it sounds like ammonia poisoning, either from the shipping bag or from your tank.

I used Dr. Tims solutions for the cycling process and had nitrates. Also, wouldn't the tank test for an ammonia spike if that was the case? The fish travelled approximately 12-18 hours from Florida to Washington state. Can an ammonia spike from the bag lead to death even if the vessel was changed to, we're assuming, a tank without ammonia?

 

[ToxicPaly]

Ammonia damages their gills which leads to them not being able to absorb enough oxygen. It’s an injury not a temporary symptom.

Osmotic shock in my experience will sometimes have the fish erratically swimming like its whole body is irritated. My opinion is just if you temp acclimated them in the bag and then just put them in as soon as the bag was open they would still be alive.

 

[tim7711]

Ammonia damages their gills which leads to them not being able to absorb enough oxygen. It’s an injury not a temporary symptom.

Osmotic shock in my experience will sometimes have the fish erratically swimming like its whole body is irritated. My opinion is just if you temp acclimated them in the bag and then just put them in as soon as the bag was open they would still be alive.

I see. I went with the method of adding tank water to the bags slowly and temp accilimate. But yes, you're right, I opened the bags and let the bags float in the water for 15 mins while this process happened.

This is my first time buying fish that require transportation... tough luck. And a huge learning point. Where do I go from here? Let the tank sit for a week and add CUC to see if there's something else that's "killing" things?