Mystery Zoa melt, my search for a cure (follow my journey).

[brucey]

Bro I’m not surprised your zoas have struggled, keep at it but if your march ICP is accurate an iodine of 200+ would be enough to melt any Zoa and your now probably dealing with the aftermath

Plus the 2 super low phosphates readings will be causing some major issues.
Just get nitrate and phos stable and work out how your iodine got that crazy high!

Good luck!

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Bro I’m not surprised your zoas have struggled, keep at it but if your march ICP is accurate an iodine of 200+ would be enough to melt any Zoa and your now probably dealing with the aftermath

Plus the 2 super low phosphates readings will be causing some major issues.
Just get nitrate and phos stable and work out how your iodine got that crazy high!

Good luck!

I know it would be super easy to point the finger at the Iodine levels. However, keeping in mind the Zoa's began to struggle and look awful before, during, and even after the Iodine level spike, I do not truly believe that was the root cause . What was super bizarre about the Iodine was I only started dosing per ICP instructions, and despite many ML of Triton Iodine being dosed the levels never were detectable. Then all of a sudden on my next ICP test the levels were up to .6ppm out of nowhere. I did many 30% water changes that totaled over collectively to be 300% by volume and the iodine levels never came down below .2ppm until I removed all of my MarinePure media; very odd but maybe a coincidence.

 

[Tavero]

Single puck type led though? I guess that’s what I was after. The folks that I have talked to who also have this issue all seem to use single puck type led’s.

Not sure. Technically no i guess. You can see the led positions my image.


I am using 10w cob LEDs though. Made from cheapest chinesium and I m undervolting them so they are running at 25% - 30% power.
Although this light has a nicer color and is more efficient than commercial lights that are several times more expensive, my hypothesis i was talking about is suspecting the light as a main culprit.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Not sure. Technically no i guess. You can see the led positions my image.


I am using 10w cob LEDs though. Made from cheapest chinesium and I m undervolting them so they are running at 25% - 30% power.
Although this light has a nicer color and is more efficient than commercial lights that are several times more expensive, my hypothesis i was talking about is suspecting the light as a main culprit.

I have decided if my Aquabiomics test comes back negative of any coral pathogens or other no brainer bacteria issues I’m putting an ATI T5 fixture on this tank just to see.

 

[Tavero]

I have decided if my Aquabiomics test comes back negative of any coral pathogens or other no brainer bacteria issues I’m putting an ATI T5 fixture on this tank just to see.

Right now a friend is babysitting four of my zoa frags that are in different stages of melting. His maxspect led lights are supplying a totally different light spectrum and intensity compared to mine. I will post the results.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Right now a friend is babysitting four of my zoa frags that are in different stages of melting. His maxspect led lights are supplying a totally different light spectrum and intensity compared to mine. I will post the results.

Yes, please do!

 

[Edgecrusher28]

AQUABIOMICS:
My Aquabiomics test have been sent back a few weeks ago, I am currently waiting on my test results to come back yet; stay tuned.

T5 LIGHTING:
I knew I said I wanted to wait until my biomics test results were back before I did anything different, but I’m tired of watching these Zoas slowly die off. So, out of morbid curiosity, I am installing my new ATI T5 fixture tomorrow after the bulb break-in period is over so I can attempt to put to rest any doubts on potential spectrum issues with led lights and Zoas long term health.

 

[Tavero]

AQUABIOMICS:
My Aquabiomics test have been sent back a few weeks ago, I am currently waiting on my test results to come back yet; stay tuned.

T5 LIGHTING:
I knew I said I wanted to wait until my biomics test results were back before I did anything different, but I’m tired of watching these Zoas slowly die off. So, out of morbid curiosity, I am installing my new ATI T5 fixture tomorrow after the bulb break-in period is over so I can attempt to put to rest any doubts on potential spectrum issues with led lights and Zoas long term health.

Good luck. The frags my friend is babysitting for me don't look good and I think they are all done for. While the utter chaos were clinging on to life in my tank while slowly shrinking, they instantly melted away to nothingness in his tank. Even a few alien explosions that still looked fine in my tank, although not growing, now look terrible in his.
Sadly the only real conclusion i can take from this, is to NOT change tanks or too many parameters at once if zoas are struggling. I also think this is the reason why i lost several zoa frags instantly after buying them. They were suffering from the same disease and a tank change was enough to kill them.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Maybe, just maybe, I am starting to make up some ground on these random Zoa issues. Around 5 weeks ago I sent off my AquaBiomics test to take a look at the bacterial and microbial community in my tanks and the news is NOT GOOD, but before we dive into that. Here is the latest and greatest with my tank.

T5 LIGHTS
The T-5 lights have been up and running for about a month now, and there has been absolutely no noticeable improvements with any of the corals let alone the problem Zoa's. I am running 4 blue plus bulbs, 1 Coral Plus, and 1 truce Actinic per common recommendations and set the intensity with my par meter. Other than very good coverage in the tank, I do not care for the look or color of these lights on top of the fact I do not believe my Zoa's issues were spectrum based. I wont run these lights long term.

DR. TIMS ECO-BALANCE PROBIOTIC and MICROBACTER 7
I wanted to run a daily/weekly dosage of the Dr.Tim's Probiotic and figured I might as well do a preventative maintenance dose of the Microbacter 7 to see if that perhaps would make any difference, and unfortunately there is nothing really to report back on, everything seems the same.

AQUABIOMICS RESULTS ARE BACK (7-20-23)
Well the results are back on these tests and the news is potentially both good and bad; so lets start. The good news is that neither of my tanks came back with any known coral pathogens in the system. Only my zoa tank which oddly enough runs a full-time UV had shown two fish pathogens in the sample. This was the tank that also received the anti-biotic treatment. The bad news is, that both of my tanks scored about as low as humanly possible both in bacterial community and diversity scores as well as overall balance scores; nearly the bottom 5 percentile. The previous ideas of this being a bacterial issues perhaps were true, but the focus likely needed to be on getting more good bacteria and stop stressing about the potential bad bacteria that may or may not exist.

When I first started this tank, I used about 80 pounds of true live rock, and that is when my tank along with my Zoa's were absolutely thriving and exploding. However, after battling a few Derbesia and Dino outbreaks , that is when I noticed a steady decline in the colors of all corals, but most specifically my Zoa's. But if you think about it, after a dozen hydrogen peroxide dosages, multiple reef-flux treatments and so on and so forth. Maybe I completely wiped out too many species of good bacteria and through my extensive efforts to keep a clean tank, never allowed them the opportunity to re-populate?

 

[mfollen]

Yep

Too much in tank treatment disrupting the development of establishing a healthy bacterial community.
Perhaps there was a problematic bacterial strain, but that would have only be confirmed with aquabiomics tests prior to the nuking.

Probiotic means is the best way to manage zoanthid bacterial issues.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Yep

Too much in tank treatment disrupting the development of establishing a healthy bacterial community.
Perhaps there was a problematic bacterial strain, but that would have only be confirmed with aquabiomics tests prior to the nuking.

Probiotic means is the best way to manage zoanthid bacterial issues.

All of this coming from a tank that scored 97% on the latest ATI ICP test. On paper this tanks parameters would suggest it should be beyond thriving, but it simply is not. As far as the "nuking" goes, I also did a biome test on my SPS tank that has never received anti-biotics nor has it ever had a UV installed and the results were very similar. Score were still in the bottom 5-8%, but I did use dark cured dry rock to start this tank; but that alone suggest potential drawbacks or issues as well.

 

[Derrick0580]

Have you considered buying multiple types of bottled bacteria from as many brands as you can find and just dump them into the tank in hopes of increasing the biodiversity?

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Have you considered buying multiple types of bottled bacteria from as many brands as you can find and just dump them into the tank in hopes of increasing the biodiversity?

I have dumped hundreds of dollars worth of Brightwell, Dr.Tims and other brands of bacteria into this tank over the years, more heavily in recent months given all the issues. However, my Zoa tank is lacking the top 5 most commonly found bacteria present on coral reefs: Flavobacteriaceae, Pelagibacteraceae, Rhodobacteraceae, just to list a few. If after dosing all of this "bacteria" in a bottle and yet I still have a bottom 93% diversity score, I will never buy another bottle of that crap again. I'm going to source some true live rock and sand and re-test in a few months.

 

[mfollen]

All of this coming from a tank that scored 97% on the latest ATI ICP test. On paper this tanks parameters would suggest it should be beyond thriving, but it simply is not. As far as the "nuking" goes, I also did a biome test on my SPS tank that has never received anti-biotics nor has it ever had a UV installed and the results were very similar. Score were still in the bottom 5-8%, but I did use dark cured dry rock to start this tank; but that alone suggest potential drawbacks or issues as well.

ICP is not bacterial measurement.
UV wipes out the most provident bacteria community in the coral reefs: pelagibacteraceaea.

It takes dry rock 1+ year plus to start becoming established. Not based on looks. Based on SPS health.

 

[mfollen]

Regardless though on the problems with zoanthid bacteria, I’ve dealt with plenty of zoa bacterial issues in prior systems through the yesars. My current system is thriving without it popping up.
Probiotic bacteria potentially along with decently managed trace seems to be the way to go for prevention + dipping whenever absolutely needed.

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Regardless though on the problems with zoanthid bacteria, I’ve dealt with plenty of zoa bacterial issues in prior systems through the yesars. My current system is thriving without it popping up.
Probiotic bacteria potentially along with decently managed trace seems to be the way to go for prevention + dipping whenever absolutely needed.

But what type of bacterial issues did you deal with? Are we talking about a lack of good bacteria families like in my case, or did you have pathogenic bacteria in the tank? Saying one has a bacterial issues in their talk which leads to the use of anti-biotics or other treatments would only serve to worsen the situation if the root cause was a lack of healthy bacteria that was depleted or killed through time or other treatments. This is especially true for those reef keepers who are very diligent in their coral dipping and quarantining processes.

Either way, everything I am saying is about worthless until I can actually solve this problem, but all I I know is Zoa's do not just up and die in a healthy tank all of a sudden for no reason after months and months of success.


P.S. This is tank is nearing two years old, and has been given just about every luxury one could think of when building a setup, so time alone does not guarantee success in microbiome development. I know I have thrown the kitchen sink at this tank and obviously negatively effected the bacteria in it, but I only started this process because the tank took a turn for no apparent reason.

 

[mfollen]

Zoas close up because the tank is not completely healthy even thought it appears that it should be: due to either PAR, flow, bacterial issues, fungi issues or chemistry issues.

What I was referring to was brown film and other zoa-specific bacterial/fungi issues

This thread has history and some experience to read up on

Post in thread 'Zoas mysteriously withering'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/zoas-mysteriously-withering.674015/post-6965379

 

[Edgecrusher28]

Zoas close up because the tank is not completely healthy even thought it appears that it should be: due to either PAR, flow, bacterial issues, fungi issues or chemistry issues.

What I was referring to was brown film and other zoa-specific bacterial/fungi issues

This thread has history and some experience to read up on

Post in thread 'Zoas mysteriously withering'
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/zoas-mysteriously-withering.674015/post-6965379

I hear what you are saying and I would obviously agree, but I am assuming you haven't looked through the full thread or seen all of the specific treatments and tests done over the last year of this whole process? Maybe I am misinterpreting what you are saying, but I have extensively treated these Zoa's over the course of time with bacterial, parasitic, and fungal treatments. Along with comprehensive ICP testing, dosing and various lighting types installed.

This thread is really geared towards those are reasonably experienced reef keepers who seemingly cant keep Zoa's even though all the obvious and even less obvious items have been given their due consideration and check out fine.

 

[natalia la loca]

i’m very interested in seeing what you find out. i’m having zoa problems too. in my tank (fluval evo 13.5) it’s a little different: a colony will thrive and grow for a while, then about half of the zoas will close, shrivel and melt. the rest recover (provided the colony is big enough), and just when i’m sure they’re fully in the clear, the disease cycle starts again. all other corals look amazing. I see no evidence of parasites after repeated searches.

It started after i added zoas from several different sellers a few months ago. I strongly suspect bacteria because the pattern is the same across colonies, but i’m very hesitant to try an antibiotic because i don’t want to disrupt the things that are going well (i.e. literally everything in the tank except the zoas).

In the interest of promoting beneficial bacteria rather than killing the bad, i’ve been dosing Dr Tim’s Eco-balance and Aquavitro Seed. I turned off my UV sterilizer after hearing Dr Tim claim on his podcast that UV can kill beneficial bacteria in the water column and allow benthic pathogens to gain a stronger foothold. After all this the zoas seem to have stabilized, but i still have an utter chaos colony on the brink of death after catching the disease a second time, and half a colony of magicians actively melting. (the other half of the colony looks great.)

i’m contemplating ordering some live reef sand from Aquabiomics: sourced from the ocean and, they claim, free of pathogens. Beyond that, idk what else to do beyond the usual husbandry routine that has all my other corals thriving. Iodine and vitamin C seem to have a spotty record, at best. I may just limit my zoa purchases to super-inexpensive morphs…or phase out zoas in this tank.

Anyway, I appreciate your trying and ruling out so many treatments.

 

[mfollen]

I hear what you are saying and I would obviously agree, but I am assuming you haven't looked through the full thread or seen all of the specific treatments and tests done over the last year of this whole process? Maybe I am misinterpreting what you are saying, but I have extensively treated these Zoa's over the course of time with bacterial, parasitic, and fungal treatments. Along with comprehensive ICP testing, dosing and various lighting types installed.

This thread is really geared towards those are reasonably experienced reef keepers who seemingly cant keep Zoa's even though all the obvious and even less obvious items have been given their due consideration and check out fine.

Yep I have read the thread. I’m trying to highlight the potential role that chemistry has on zoa and in particular bacteria as well through implementing probiotics.

Fauna marin has some good info out there on working top down from majors through minors and the nutrients to stabilize coral processes and other reef tank processes.
Salinity>majors>halogens>nutrients
As zoa are not coral, they are similar but different. I have found that this + probiotics may be key in preventing the bacterial issues.
But otherwise PAR, flow, etc also have major impacts of course too. But even salinity can be hard to get to target, which should be done to stabilize all chemistry.

Good luck