Prime Does Not Remove Ammonia

[Rick Mathew]

Last August we discussed data that cast doubt on the ability of Prime to remove ammonia from artificial seawater.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/does-prime-actually-detoxify-free-ammonia-nh3.849985/

Since then, I continued the search for evidence that Prime removed ammonia from artificial seawater. Because the total ammonia test we use in the hobby is inactivated by Prime, I used free ammonia sensing films: Seachem Alert, Pacific Sentry Aqua Sensor and the Seneye ammonia sensing slide.

Ammonia sensing films are semi-permeable membranes with embedded dye molecules. When the film is placed in a solution containing ammonia, free ammonia diffuses through the membrane and reacts with the dye molecule, changing its color. The amount of ammonia entering the film and reacting with dye molecules is proportional to the concentration of free ammonia. Since visually judging color intensity is prone to error, I assessed the color change of the sensor film by measuring the change in reflected light intensity (600-625 nm) with a visible spectrometer equipped with a fiber optic cable.

Experimental Protocol

Ammonia sensing films were placed in either an ammonia solution in Instant Ocean or an ammonia solution in Instant Ocean containing Prime. Five or ten times the recommended amount was used. After a fixed period of time, the sensing film was removed from the test solution and the reflected light spectrum recorded. After each use, the sensing film was allowed to recover to its ammonia free condition.

Results

No sensing film detected a statistically significant removal of ammonia either at 0.5 or 2.0 ppm total ammonia 2 hours after adding Prime to the ammonia solution. The graph below shows data for the calibration of the Seneye ammonia sensor (X’s indicate the addition of 0.12 ppm total ammonia). After the last ammonia addition, the slide was allowed to recover. During this recovery period, ten times the recommended amount of Prime was added to the ammonia solution and allowed to react two hours. The recovered Seneye slide was then placed into the reacted ammonia+Prime solution. The orange circle is the response of the ammonia sensing film to the Prime+ammonia solution, indicating no change to the final ammonia concentration.

This is just one of dozens of experiments where I measured no ammonia removal. At no time was there an indication that Prime removes ammonia. I also looked at another water conditioner, Cloramx, which also claims to remove ammonia and it too failed to show any ammonia removal capability, even at thirty eight times the recommended dose. I am beginning to wonder about the credibility of all water conditioners that claim to remove ammonia. The next step is for someone with a single ion electrode to continue the search for the elusive ammonia removal.

Well done Dan! The essence of a good experiment is it confronts us with the possibility of thinking differently, if we so dare and to dig deeper into our currently held understandings and challenge them, if we are willing. It prompts us to examine our methods and face those things we do not understand….All of this is fueled by spirited debate…..You most defiantly did that!

Thanks for taking your valuable time to explore and push against conventional wisdom

 

[Dan_P]

As I posted here, Seneye - one of the measuring devices does not recommend its use during Prime treatment (Their words - on the phone). They also said that at higher amounts of free ammonia the seneye becomes less and less accurate - and in prolonged high ammonia time periods - the slide becomes stained and damaged.

None of this pertains to my experimental conditions so we can eliminate these concerns.

I do not believe you can use a Seachem alert badge - to determine whether free ammonia is dropping - BUT - according to Seachem - and verified this AM - the multi-test (which I think Taricha tested) - should. (I have one on order).

We will need more than your belief here. What are you thinking?

The problem I see with all of the testing - is that none of it proves Prime does or does not DETOXIFY ammonia. The testing strongly suggests that it does not eliminate free ammonia. The test Dan did with the Pacific Ammonia brand (can't remember it exactly) - seems to be the most 'accurate' - in this regard (and on their website - says - that there shoudl be very few interfering substances. (Then again so does Seachem). It remains an interesting discussion - and much appreciated. I almost bought some prime for my discus tank - I tried a new food - which they didnt like - woke up to cloudy water - and one dead small fish(out of 40).

Correct, my observations only apply to Prime not decreasing the ammonia concentration, but its Prime claim that it combines with ammonia to make it safe. When ammonia combines with something, it is no longer ammonia and the concentration in solution drops. Nothing to do with “detoxfication” though it does since Prime implies that combing to make a safe compound sure links combining and detoxifying.

 

[Dan_P]

This I do not believe is absolutely 'true' - but may very well be true. It is possible by a number of mechanisms - for a chemical to still be 'present' in a sample in in vitro, but be non-toxic 'in vivo'. Your tests (especially the pacific sentry - which supposedly is not affected by ammonia altering chemicals) certainly seem to show that free ammonia levels do not drop.

The Prime label explicitly says that Prime converts ammonia to non-toxic safe compound. That is chemistry. No decline in ammonia concentration, no safe compound formation. Prime does not claim that Prime provides a protective barrier or is an inhibitor of ammonia on gill surfaces, or any in vivo effect. Only the customers are inventing that notion.

 

[Dan_P]

Why disregard Seachem alert badge result?

Maybe Dan can post the procedure used with it and the results.

Will do.

In the end, the procedure was rather simple: short, fixed exposures (15 seconds) of the sensor to the test solution, alternating between the ammonia solution and the ammonia solution + prime during the response phase of the ammonia sensor. In this way, the sensor is never overexposed to ammonia and measurements do not rely on sensor recovery time. So, if Prime reduced the concentration of ammonia, the absorbance step increase when the sensor is exposed to ammonia + Prime would be smaller than without Prime. I never witnessed this.

 

[Brian_68]

Not taking sides with Prime's claims but this experiment does not refute Seachem's claims that it detoxifies the ammonia as each form (toxic vs. non-toxic) is not measured before and after.

 

[Miami Reef]

Correct me if I’m wrong:

Bound ammonia will not show on ammonia sensing film test kits. If the test kit can detect bound ammonia - the ammonia isn’t truly bound.

I’m pretty sure we know that prime does bind ammonia in freshwater. Would a replicated test procedure but with using freshwater add insight of prime working in situations where it claims to?

I think we can prove that prime isn’t working in saltwater if we can clearly see it working in freshwater using the same testing methods.

 

[MnFish1]

None of this pertains to my experimental conditions so we can eliminate these concerns.


We will need more than your belief here. What are you thinking?

Correct, my observations only apply to Prime not decreasing the ammonia concentration, but its Prime claim that it combines with ammonia to make it safe. When ammonia combines with something, it is no longer ammonia and the concentration in solution drops. Nothing to do with “detoxfication” though it does since Prime implies that combing to make a safe compound sure links combining and detoxifying.

Absolutely agree - but - you did refer back to august which thesis was 'detoxify'. And indeed your answer - implies - it does not make 'it safe'. We don't know. I don't - You don't. That was the point

 

[MnFish1]

Correct me if I’m wrong:

Bound ammonia will not show on ammonia sensing film test kits. If the test kit can detect bound ammonia - the ammonia isn’t truly bound.

I’m pretty sure we know that prime does bind ammonia in freshwater. Would a replicated test procedure but with using freshwater add insight of prime working in situations where it claims to?

I think we can prove that prime isn’t working in saltwater if we can clearly see it working in freshwater using the same testing methods.

You are wrong.

 

[MnFish1]

Why disregard Seachem alert badge result?

Maybe Dan can post the procedure used with it and the results.

PS - the reason to disregard it - is the units on the alert badge itself - 1. I ts subjective (the Color) - 2. The amounts of ammonia (free) - between safe, alert, etc - are extremely high

 

[MnFish1]

You are wrong.

OH - and the reason you're wrong is that every test has a margin of error. The margin of these tests are HIGH. They are not scientific. Which is why I've been trying to plan a test fro 6 weeks. BTW - Prime may very well do nothing. I agree

 

[MnFish1]

The Prime label explicitly says that Prime converts ammonia to non-toxic safe compound. That is chemistry. No decline in ammonia concentration, no safe compound formation. Prime does not claim that Prime provides a protective barrier or is an inhibitor of ammonia on gill surfaces, or any in vivo effect. Only the customers are inventing that notion.

You have not done any experiment to prove that ammonia levels that were toxic - are kept toxic with Prime. I'm going to attempt that shortly - if I can get some saltwater feeder fish.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not taking sides with Prime's claims but this experiment does not refute Seachem's claims that it detoxifies the ammonia as each form (toxic vs. non-toxic) is not measured before and after.

I don't follow that. Since NH3 is the primary toxic form, and Dan showed it did not change before and after, how does that not refute a claim to detoxify ammonia by converting it into a nontoxic form? That is the exact Seachem claim.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You have not done any experiment to prove that ammonia levels that were toxic - are kept toxic with Prime. I'm going to attempt that shortly - if I can get some saltwater feeder fish.

I disagree with that assertion, but I look forward to any additional experiments.

If you do try tox tests, be sure to monitor pH.

 

[MnFish1]

I disagree with that assertion, but I look forward to any additional experiments.

If you do try tox tests, be sure to monitor pH.

I would assume that using freshwater would also prove (or disprove) the point? I.e. using feeder guppies? (PS - these would be guppies that I would be using to make food with - and the goal would be to not cause any harm/toxicity with ammonia (ie - if any distress - they would be removed)

 

[brandon429]

stick with saltwater to avoid massive context change and new variables like nitrite impacts and other ones we haven’t thought of yet


I wouldn’t want to see any study done on freshwater extrapolated over to us. Get two ocellaris for the test. They’re mass bred, stocks aren’t in danger, not taken from natural reefs, fully representative of our hobby and destined to wind up in someone’s white rock barely cycled reef without disease preps anyway.

 

[Malcontent]

Some kind of marine algae is used for ammonia toxicity tests. Couldn't find a supplier of it though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would assume that using freshwater would also prove (or disprove) the point? I.e. using feeder guppies? (PS - these would be guppies that I would be using to make food with - and the goal would be to not cause any harm/toxicity with ammonia (ie - if any distress - they would be removed)

I wouldn't use a freshwater experiment. Suppose Prime can bind ammonia in freshwater and not salt. That's not inconceivable, and would make everyone's experiment and claims consistent, except Seachem's assertion it works in saltwater.

 

[MnFish1]

I wouldn't use a freshwater experiment. Suppose Prime can bind ammonia in freshwater and not salt. That's not inconceivable, and would make everyone's experiment and claims consistent, except Seachem's assertion it works in saltwater.

Yes - you're correct - I'll just adapt to saltwater. I was under the impression that some of @Dan_P's experiments were done in RODI - with the same results. Perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[MnFish1]

stick with saltwater to avoid massive context change and new variables like nitrite impacts and other ones we haven’t thought of yet


I wouldn’t want to see any study done on freshwater extrapolated over to us. Get two ocellaris for the test. They’re mass bred, stocks aren’t in danger, not taken from natural reefs, fully representative of our hobby and destined to wind up in someone’s white rock barely cycled reef without disease preps anyway.

I can easily adapt guppies to saltwater fairly quickly. They would work - I still expect an ethical complaint from people here - I'm receiving my Seachem multi-tests tomorrow. I'm going to approach it a little differently that @Dan_P

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'd do the Seachem multitest first.