STN Cant figure out why?

[Rick.45cal]

Thanks for the feedback. I dont know what LC is? Is it something you have experienced personally. Can you share some details about it?

I agree it is bad to move fast, and I agree it is bad to move slow. It just depends on the situation. Massive water changes save people on a regular basis. I feel like I move slow but that is subjective. I checked back in my notes to get some dates and events if it is of any help for people trying to help diagnose. The ALK and PO4 changes went out of norm fast and I felt like it was ok to move them back really fast.

February 4th I got my ICP tests back. The tank looked better than it ever had as far as color and speed of growth. I was excited to see what the magic formula was.

March 10 th was the water flow overflow change. It was the day before the main pump died and had to be replaced. The flow was running at a different speed and I pulled the extra overflow while I was trying to make the flow match the old pump. I accidentally fragged a bunch of corals in the process . They healed incredibly fast and it left me thinking that the change was for the better.

Looks like march 22 was when I decided to pull the light diffusers off of my lights, I dialed them back 20% to accommodate for it and put them on 2 week acclimation mode. April 3rd was the day I decided that the lights may be burning my coral. I put the light diffusers back on, set the light back to -10% of the previous setting and put them on a 5 week acclimation to come back to normal.

March 24 was the first sign of trouble and one of the first days in San Diego that was hot enough to make my chiller Kick on. The issue was with a coral that had popped off the rocks from bubble algae. I moved it over 2 inches to what looked like a better place. I thought that the damage might have been coming from light color shift. I did nothing and waited. It was some time between that and April 4th that I lost the first colony ever in that tank.

April 3 rd I had a Birdsnest taking damage as well as a ponapi. I fragged the Ponapi and have several chunks that made it. I had Cardinal fry on March 1. I had been feeding live brine to the system for two weeks and knew that there was a risk of increasing my copper levels by doing it. When I saw the tissue loss I added Poly filter to mitigate the risk of copper. I the birds nest came back on its own after that and setting the lights to change back. Metal poisoning seems like you act as fast as possible. I sent out for an ICP test that day to ATI and it still hasn't come back so I am in the dark.

I dont know when I had changed the GFO. My notebook was missing at the time. I would guess it was around March 10th. My test kit showed that it was pushing .05 and that was higher than it had been so I wanted to stop it there. Seemed like regular maintenance. I use very little GFO and rely on my Chaeto to take up the majority of it. It was a new brand, so there was a change. I have never seen a reaction to a GFO change but I wanted to throw it in there.

From April 3rd until now I have been making small changes in the light, and GFO to move my tank back to where it was on Feb 4th. The flow stays as it is.

The alk drop was 4/15 down to 6.1 from 10.5. I got the calcium reactor back online and it is back up to 9.9 today. I am holding it there for now. I have run a shift nearly that dramatic on the same set of corals with no damage.

ICP from feb showed po4 at .05. Same as my testing. When I got the Hanna Checker on 4/19 found out that it was possibly up to .23. Salifert still said >.1 more than .05. I didn't believe the hanna, but decided to act as if. Lanthanum won't take your po4 to zero and I feel comfortable with it. I brought it down over the past 4 days. I dont know how long it had been high, so I dont know how dramatic the correction was. I figure the ICP results will help me out there.

The ALK PO4 seem like a lot of changes really fast when I look at it, I just feel that making corrections back to normal need to happen at least as fast as they went wrong. Some things like temp, or ammonia need to happen right now.

I feel like the excess of phosphate was the issue and expected to see improvements from dialing it back. I am totally willing to be wrong about that or any of it for that matter.

Please give me more feedback if you have had some experience with tissue loss related to any of it.

By LC I meant Lanthanum Chloride which is what you used to lower your phosphate with.

Quick changes in PO4 and alkalinity seem to be things that REALLY upset corals, particularly when the tank is a high light environment. When you want to make a change in those it’s best to make them over a very gradual period. If your tank alkalinity is suddenly very low the best strategy to take is to increase the dosing only slightly to stabilize the tank and stop it from dropping further, then adding slightly more to the daily schedule so that it creeps back up over the period of a week or so. By changing it quick back you are shocking the corals a second time. By gradual we’re ideally talking over the period of weeks instead of days.

PO4 deficiency is poorly understood by most aquarists, and the damage it causes especially when there is ample Nitrate available is exponential. In a high light tank the damage is swift and permanent and looks identical to your photos. Even if the phosphate deficiency is a punctuated event and phosphate levels are restored shortly afterwards, my experience is the damage has already been done and you’ll see tissue death and loss over quite a long period afterwards, (weeks, to months later). But if you keep phosphate available, the corals will continue to grow. It may take a long time for them to grow over the damaged areas in my experience, but it is what it is.

Here’s the catch to all of this, you need to find where your tank is happiest with phosphates being available (but remember too low is a BAD thing), you can’t go by what someone else suggests because they aren’t living in your tank with your lighting and flow etc. You have to let the corals tell you what’s right. So don’t be afraid of having phosphates, and if they get wildly out of control then you can start instituting a good control scheme that makes very gradual changes. I guarantee your tank will turn around. :)

 

[w2inc]

High can be a problem as well. I hear it repeated often here - if you're going to dose something you should test for it - Im not a big fan of ICP testing - but I know you can get a K test at the LFS here. Just a suggestion - not a criticism.

Tell me a little more about your opinion on ICP?

 

[Sarah24!]

Hello,

Honestly I can’t give a reference to icp. However, I have found that if you keep things super simple then your less likely to have issues. Again, you don’t want your water parameters the exact same every single day. You want them close yes maybe swing from an 8 alk to a 7 alk or one up etc because it will lessen the sensitivity of your acros. Having all these pretty corals means nothing if they die st the slightest little hick up.

I don’t suggest you chase numbers and or make lots of changes. It has been shown often that it has negative effects on your corals. The reason you see some rtn and others not is based on a few things. One how was it raised, ocean or tank. When my salinity changed my ocean raised acros rtn within 8 hours. I lost four in 8 hours every thing else did fine but they were raised in a tank. They were not as sensitive as the ocean ones. If you want ocean ones you can decrease their sensitivity by slowly inducing slight changes. Again, if you keep your alk at 8 let it swing to 7.5 or 7, or 8.5. In time you can increase that, yet with this said I’d never allow anything to swing like from alk of 8 to 5 etc. since your using a low nutrient system you want your alk around 7-8 tops. You also may want to spot feed corals to make sure they get food. Turning the lights down some will also help them heal faster. I really hope some of this helps you and your able to get past this.

 

[w2inc]

By LC I meant Lanthanum Chloride which is what you used to lower your phosphate with.

Quick changes in PO4 and alkalinity seem to be things that REALLY upset corals, particularly when the tank is a high light environment. When you want to make a change in those it’s best to make them over a very gradual period. If your tank alkalinity is suddenly very low the best strategy to take is to increase the dosing only slightly to stabilize the tank and stop it from dropping further, then adding slightly more to the daily schedule so that it creeps back up over the period of a week or so. By changing it quick back you are shocking the corals a second time. By gradual we’re ideally talking over the period of weeks instead of days.

PO4 deficiency is poorly understood by most aquarists, and the damage it causes especially when there is ample Nitrate available is exponential. In a high light tank the damage is swift and permanent and looks identical to your photos. Even if the phosphate deficiency is a punctuated event and phosphate levels are restored shortly afterwards, my experience is the damage has already been done and you’ll see tissue death and loss over quite a long period afterwards, (weeks, to months later). But if you keep phosphate available, the corals will continue to grow. It may take a long time for them to grow over the damaged areas in my experience, but it is what it is.

Here’s the catch to all of this, you need to find where your tank is happiest with phosphates being available (but remember too low is a BAD thing), you can’t go by what someone else suggests because they aren’t living in your tank with your lighting and flow etc. You have to let the corals tell you what’s right. So don’t be afraid of having phosphates, and if they get wildly out of control then you can start instituting a good control scheme that makes very gradual changes. I guarantee your tank will turn around. :)

Thanks for all the detail. I really appreciate the time you all have put in.

So I have the levels from when the tank looked the best it ever has as well as produced the best growth I have seen. Feb 4th ICP test. I am back at those levels as far as I can tell.

It is definitely slow tissue loss. I was going to cut off the dead today, but it is nor really possible with the tissue loss patterns. I am planning to follow the recommendation for the super glue line if I see more loss tomorrow. I have had most success with that.

The issue is still only on 3 corals. I am really looking at bacteria, not vibrio since it would be dead in 24 hours, but possibly something similar to what is killing the Florida Keys. I think cutting it off or smothering it in cyanoacrylate is the best progression.

The lights are now and will stay at -10% of normal until things stabilize. ALK has stabilized at 9.9. PO4 at .08 +- meter reading of .02 +-5% of the .08. Nitrate is at .5. Assuming the margin for error on the Hanna I feel like thing are back to the Feb standards.

I have considered a water change, but I am not sure that is the issue. I am going to hold off another day on that. I will clean out the ph4 sink in my sump, but if I pull the gravel, I will leave it out. They system runs NO3 poor and I believe the sand bed adds to that. It was also seeded from the ocean and I believe that I have a predator in it that targets clams. The only thing to live in this tank is a Derassa. Small bysus gland and can keep things out.

Tissue loss seems to have stabilized for the day. I will check in tomorrow. ATI contacted me to tell me that the ICP test got lost in the mail.

My skimmers pull air from outside of the house. I still feel like I need to be looking outside of the box on this one. Maybe I hit a tipping point in the last two months. I dont know.

 

[w2inc]

Hello,

Honestly I can’t give a reference to icp. However, I have found that if you keep things super simple then your less likely to have issues. Again, you don’t want your water parameters the exact same every single day. You want them close yes maybe swing from an 8 alk to a 7 alk or one up etc because it will lessen the sensitivity of your acros. Having all these pretty corals means nothing if they die st the slightest little hick up.

I don’t suggest you chase numbers and or make lots of changes. It has been shown often that it has negative effects on your corals. The reason you see some rtn and others not is based on a few things. One how was it raised, ocean or tank. When my salinity changed my ocean raised acros rtn within 8 hours. I lost four in 8 hours every thing else did fine but they were raised in a tank. They were not as sensitive as the ocean ones. If you want ocean ones you can decrease their sensitivity by slowly inducing slight changes. Again, if you keep your alk at 8 let it swing to 7.5 or 7, or 8.5. In time you can increase that, yet with this said I’d never allow anything to swing like from alk of 8 to 5 etc. since your using a low nutrient system you want your alk around 7-8 tops. You also may want to spot feed corals to make sure they get food. Turning the lights down some will also help them heal faster. I really hope some of this helps you and your able to get past this.

I appreciate that. Cal reactor holds things pretty solidly when it is running right. The LFS that buys stuff from me runs at 8 dkh or less. I normally sit at 10.5. They have never lost a frag from me. I think your theory makes sense and I will give it more consideration.

Could be that things were too solid and that DKH drop is what threw things int0 a spiral.

 

[MnFish1]

Tell me a little more about your opinion on ICP?

Im sorry I don't have links to all of them - but you can search some threads here. 1. It seems that they are not all that accurate - i.e. you send a sample to one company and get sometimes markedly different results (so which ICP test to do). I think there have also been people that have sent a the same sample in 2 vials - to the same company - and the results have been different. 2. If you are having a problem in your tank - you send the sample - some companies take up to 2 weeks to get a result. Meaning that you're going to have to try fixes before you have the results - by the time you get the results the chemistry in your tank has probably changed. 3. If you're not having a problem in your tank - and just want to send a test - which is what some methods recommend - many people have had levels that are unexplainably high (mostly metals like tin, etc) - So what do you do when that happens? There are numerous threads that document these types of questions in the Chemistry forum. 4. Sometimes the level of xxxx will be 'below' the threshold. There are also numerous threads saying something like 'my iron is low', etc - Unless you want to supplement (which usually doesn't make sense) - the common answer is - it doesnt matter OR - do a water change.

Many people like to use them if they are doing no or only rare water changes. Or they just want proof that all is well in their tanks. I have no problem with this - except to say - for the most part you can tell if all is well in your tank by looking at the coral. If there is a problem - the solution is usually a water change.....

Others can weigh in here that are more proponents for ICP.

BTW - just a statistical issue. If you send one test - there is a mean and standard deviation (i.e a normal range) to which your sample is tested. In medicine a LOW value is usually considered 2 standard deviations below the mean. A High value is 2 standard deviations above the mean. The key point - of all of the normal samples (used to make the normal range) - it means that about 5% of 'normal values' will fall either above or below 2 standard debiviations

So this means that even if your test (your tank) is 'normal' there is a 5% chance that your 1 test will be called high or low - but actually be 'normal'. It also then follows that if you do 20 tests - there is an almost 100% chance that ONE of them will be either high or low (even though there may be nothing wrong).

This problem is especially important when testing is done with no symptoms. I.e. your tank looks normal - you send an ICP test - the chance that a 'high radium' level means anything may be very small. On the other hand if all your corals are dying - and you send an ICP test the chance that a 'high radium' level means something may be more likely... Note - I'm not against ICP testing Ive been curious to do one - but - then I keep coming back to the idea - what will I actually do with the results? In your case - it might (may still) be interesting to have sent one when you first started having problems - and another one now - to see if something changed. If you had seen 'metals' in the first one - it may have more pointed to metal in the water etc etc

 

[w2inc]

Im sorry I don't have links to all of them - but you can search some threads here. 1. It seems that they are not all that accurate - i.e. you send a sample to one company and get sometimes markedly different results (so which ICP test to do). I think there have also been people that have sent a the same sample in 2 vials - to the same company - and the results have been different. 2. If you are having a problem in your tank - you send the sample - some companies take up to 2 weeks to get a result. Meaning that you're going to have to try fixes before you have the results - by the time you get the results the chemistry in your tank has probably changed. 3. If you're not having a problem in your tank - and just want to send a test - which is what some methods recommend - many people have had levels that are unexplainably high (mostly metals like tin, etc) - So what do you do when that happens? There are numerous threads that document these types of questions in the Chemistry forum. 4. Sometimes the level of xxxx will be 'below' the threshold. There are also numerous threads saying something like 'my iron is low', etc - Unless you want to supplement (which usually doesn't make sense) - the common answer is - it doesnt matter OR - do a water change.

Many people like to use them if they are doing no or only rare water changes. Or they just want proof that all is well in their tanks. I have no problem with this - except to say - for the most part you can tell if all is well in your tank by looking at the coral. If there is a problem - the solution is usually a water change.....

Others can weigh in here that are more proponents for ICP.

BTW - just a statistical issue. If you send one test - there is a mean and standard deviation (i.e a normal range) to which your sample is tested. In medicine a LOW value is usually considered 2 standard deviations below the mean. A High value is 2 standard deviations above the mean. The key point - of all of the normal samples (used to make the normal range) - it means that about 5% of 'normal values' will fall either above or below 2 standard debiviations

So this means that even if your test (your tank) is 'normal' there is a 5% chance that your 1 test will be called high or low - but actually be 'normal'. It also then follows that if you do 20 tests - there is an almost 100% chance that ONE of them will be either high or low (even though there may be nothing wrong).

This problem is especially important when testing is done with no symptoms. I.e. your tank looks normal - you send an ICP test - the chance that a 'high radium' level means anything may be very small. On the other hand if all your corals are dying - and you send an ICP test the chance that a 'high radium' level means something may be more likely... Note - I'm not against ICP testing Ive been curious to do one - but - then I keep coming back to the idea - what will I actually do with the results? In your case - it might (may still) be interesting to have sent one when you first started having problems - and another one now - to see if something changed. If you had seen 'metals' in the first one - it may have more pointed to metal in the water etc etc

Thanks for the detail.. as well as explaining standard deviations. I took statistics over 20 years ago and forgotten most of it.

I was using ATI for my testing and they had been a two week turn around always. My goal on this one was to see what had gone wrong. I thought that after 2 weeks whatever issue it was would have cleared up, but at least I would have a better idea as to what to look for if I had the same issue again. As well as be able to finish this thread with an answer that might help somebody out in the future.

I do put a lot of stock on the tests as far as feeling good about my system but you got me thinking and I realized that metals are just a tiny part of what is actually going on. I they really just test for metals and not organic compounds. Incredibly many things that can be made with C-H-O. Formaldehide, Methanol, and Botox to name a few.

I just finished reading some abstracts and a partial article on Phudomonas aeruginosa and vibrio cholerae in regard to the exotoxins they produce. ICP tests are not going to be any help in that area and saltwater tanks are a great petri dish for those and more like them. Especially when there are available nutrients and extra heat.

I see bacterial infections on my fish occasionally but don't make an effort to treat it anymore. There are just not many options with a reef and they almost always recover. Knowing the role bacteria take in wiping out coral in the Florida Keys, and seeing the random pattern of tissue loss as well as its consistent progression, it stands to reason that my issue is bacterial.

High nutrient load, 2 degree temperature increase in my tank from a recent heat wave, new areas for slow water flow and a dirty skimmer not pulling bacteria out as fast. Combine that with less food going in to the system starving off some nitrobacteria and leaving room for other strains to move in. The signs of pseudomonas on tattered fins (from my damsels attacking everything at the beginning of a breeding cycle). The randomly effected corals showing tissue loss at different areas. All these signs make it easy to look in the direction of a pathogenic bacteria outbreak. I believe that more often than not tissue loss from a point specific source is an infection. If ATI ever finds my water sample and I get the results back as normal, it will be really easy to point at bacteria. Corals being stressed opens that door as well.

My chiller has a 2 degree variable and it is easy to have it overlap the heaters accidentally. I try to keep them far enough apart to avoid that. Electricity here is really expensive. I got an apex last week and am now able to keep the tank within 1 degree without overlapping the heater and chiller. I will clean out some of the sediment in the sump and focus on keeping the skimmer clean and maybe I can swing the odds back into my favor.

If this had happened two years ago I would have broken off the effected areas before I even posted. I think I have caught myself with "enough knowledge to be dangerous". I have a lot of thoughts on water changes. One of them being you are just diluting the problem, but at least it will buy some time. If it is an excess bacteria load or a ton of other thins it may just fix it.

The tissue loss seems to have stopped on all but one of the corals. I am going to trim it back and Iodine dip it and hopefully I can end this.

Thanks again to all of you for the time, support and sharing your experiences. Trouble shooting is so much more effective with multiple brains on it.

 

[w2inc]

Got the ICP test back.
Top image is NO3 Po4 with healthy tank on the right. Lower image is all the elements that ATI feels are out of range. Healthy tank on the left. The 3 columns in the reading are my values, ATI recommended values, and difference in the two.

 

[MnFish1]

Got the ICP test back.
Top image is NO3 Po4 with healthy tank on the right. Lower image is all the elements that ATI feels are out of range. Healthy tank on the left. The 3 columns in the reading are my values, ATI recommended values, and difference in the two.

All due respect - they do not match up .... BUT its really hard to compare without labels.:)

 

[w2inc]

All due respect - they do not match up .... BUT its really hard to compare without labels.:)

Does this work better, or were you asking for something else? The rest of the results just show that my levels are within the recommended range but I am happy to post those if you think the info would be useful.

I buy stuff from this guy and have had good luck with his advice. https://www.garretts-acropolis.com

He had this on his website about K in relation to PO4 levels. (Clipped from topic of treatment with interceptor.)

"The main thing to worry about is if the phosphate continues to rise or stay at higher than normal levels this can cause a deficiency in potassium. If potassium levels were to drop below 250ppm (NSW 390ppm) you may start to see some corals loose there tissue much like R.T.N. "

 

[MnFish1]

I would say - your tank - at both - the salinity is low. But...

 

[w2inc]

potassium?

I came up low on potassium in my ICP. I think yo may have hit it.

Thanks again for pitching in.

I did 2 x 20+% water changes over the last two days and will do another today. It will make it difficult to really pin the issue on one thing but K is looking like a bigger player than I had given it credit for.

I haven't taken/made the time to go in and trim back the dead sections. It just feels better to not look at the tank :(. After taking a good look last night and today, things seem to not be progressing. :)

The water changes will have diluted whatever the issue was. I have a K test kit and will be watching the levels more closely moving forward.

 

[MnFish1]

I came up low on potassium in my ICP. I think yo may have hit it.

Thanks again for pitching in.

I did 2 x 20+% water changes over the last two days and will do another today. It will make it difficult to really pin the issue on one thing but K is looking like a bigger player than I had given it credit for.

I haven't taken/made the time to go in and trim back the dead sections. It just feels better to not look at the tank :(. After taking a good look last night and today, things seem to not be progressing. :)

The water changes will have diluted whatever the issue was. I have a K test kit and will be watching the levels more closely moving forward.

POtassium? your salinity is really low. Unless Im reading something different than you - which I might be. If I were to compare the importance of potassium vs salinity - it would be salinity every time

 

[w2inc]

I would say - your tank - at both - the salinity is low. But...

I have passive concerns with that. I have always kept it at .025 according to my refractometer. The discrepancy stands out to me but it has been over 2 years on this tank and I have not seen in issue in my stock. The LFS calibrated the meter for me when I purchased it and until yesterday I hadn't really thought to recalibrate it.

Thanks for pitching in. I will get some calibration fluid.

 

[Dr. Reef]

I agree @MnFish1
Salinity is low but if things were rocking and rolling before with same levels and suddenly things went south most likely and least checked element in reef tank is Potassium.
Acros/sps are very unforgiving to sudden changes or low K levels.

 

[w2inc]

It is easy to address both. Thanks again. I will check in as things progress.

 

[MnFish1]

I have passive concerns with that. I have always kept it at .025 according to my refractometer. The discrepancy stands out to me but it has been over 2 years on this tank and I have not seen in issue in my stock. The LFS calibrated the meter for me when I purchased it and until yesterday I hadn't really thought to recalibrate it.

Thanks for pitching in. I will get some calibration fluid.

Or. -the point being - don't rely on ICP testing. Because if that is 25% off or 20% so can the rest of the 'stuff'. Or>

 

[w2inc]

I just calibrated my Refractometer. It was reading .0015 higher than my calibration solution. After checking the tank again, I am at 1.025 and I am pretty happy there.

They recommend 1.0263.

I never know what normal is and today my random search landed me here.
http://iprc.soest.hawaii.edu/users/jimp/papers/spga_ts.pdf

Between Bali and through the Lesser Sunda Island Chain there is pretty good coral growth. The salinity isn't constant.
In December 1995 the range is from 1.0256 to 1.0262
In March of 1998 the range is from 1.0243 to 1.0262
In May 1999 the range is from 1.0243 to 1.0256

The fluctuations are charted and have some impressive swings in what appears to be a couple weeks.
The recommendation could be wrong. Their machine could be off by 20%. I emailed them to ask their tolerances. I will let you know.

The temperature variances are discussed in that paper as well. The gap is bigger than 4f and the temps are much higher than I ever run my system. I try to stay under 77f.

I look into it temperature and salinity a couple times a year. The more I read about salinity and temperature, the less I feel like I know.

 

[w2inc]

Or. -the point being - don't rely on ICP testing. Because if that is 25% off or 20% so can the rest of the 'stuff'. Or>

ATI just got back to me. (which I like, so far always within 12 hours) They say their testing can vary based on the element. But he feels fine saying within 2%

 

[MnFish1]

I agree @MnFish1
Salinity is low but if things were rocking and rolling before with same levels and suddenly things went south most likely and least checked element in reef tank is Potassium.
Acros/sps are very unforgiving to sudden changes or low K levels.

I dont understand - unless I'm reading it incorrectly - the salinity on the ICP test was quite lower than your corrected refractometer. Additionally - assume the Salinity was 'correct' your potassium etc would be higher - and your alk -which I think Is high already would be even higher. What do you think explains the difference between the Salinity on your refractometer - and the ICP test? (Or is it because of the adjustments in your water after you sent the ICP test).

BTW your results illustrate some of the reasons I dont care for ICP tests. I think I already wrote this.