The DSR Method (Dutch Synthetic Reefing)

glennf · Jul 5, 2014

reefwiser said:
Glenn could you share a link to your thread on the dutch fourm you post on.
I liked to read thru the thread and see others tanks. I care nothing about the whole WC debate and am interested in the science of the method. perhaps talking about each element and why and where its use and meaning would be helpful.

I have several threads on my "dutch" home forum.
There is where i start sharing my method.
At first there was much resistance and lots of debating. So i backed down and left it to cool down. After many users proved me right the critics backed down and i continued sharing.

After a while others start argueing why i was allowed to "advertise" my method.
That was the moment i decided to become a sponsor on my home forum.
I took that hurdle for the dutch reefing community. This shut them up, now there was silence and no more reason to argue about.

The decision to becoming sponsor triggered a chain reaction of events.
Before i helped a few reefers who were on the virge of quiting the hobby to find back the joy in their tank. I supplied them with the neccesary stuff in recycled drinking bottles and plastic bag. It was on a small scale, just the equivalent of frag swapping/sales.
After being upgraded to status "sponsor" this was no way to go any further.
So i start looking into bottling and packing the minerals in something that looked better than "recycled drinking bottles".

Mr. Tanne hoff came to visit my tank and was very intrigued with the latest development and wrote an article on the subject on reef builders.

Somehow this was the turning point.
My very succesfull thread on reefcentral was instantly remove and i was rewarded an infraction of the rules.
This is when became very carefull and stopped sharing all information about my method on al forums i was active at.
Without the approval of the site administrators, i will not post anything on the subject anymore.
Because i don't want to waste my time writing down things, which get deleted because it is against forum rules.

glennf · Jul 5, 2014

My dutch tank thread:
http://zeewaterforum.info/forums/sh...enn-s-Aquaria-Verzameling&p=845522#post845522

My DSR threads:
http://zeewaterforum.info/forums/sh...-Methode-(Dutch-Synthetic-Reefing)&highlight=

http://zeewaterforum.info/forums/showthread.php?120067-DSR-mineralen-calculator&highlight=

Dr.Me · Jul 5, 2014

:hammer::hammer:I love this thread,,, my self a believer of No. WC I have years too not Doing it...

glennf · Jul 6, 2014

Dr.Me said:
:hammer::hammer:I love this thread,,, my self a believer of No. WC I have years too not Doing it...

Thanks .
This is what i mean, people share their thoughts and support the idea. Now they have others who show it can be done without being criticised. Not everybody have the same results and knowledge, but by sharing they can improve each other, which can benefit the reefing community (for those who are open minded).

People having great results with the traditional routines should stick to that and do what they believe works best for them. I am not trying to convince them or anybody else.

People who are at the virge of quiting, or finding the task of wc annoying, keeping a reef a (financial) burden, and are considering to go without wc, can now learn that it can be done with great results.
This is their last change to turn the hobby into something that suits their ways, environment and wallet.

chrisfraser05 · Jul 6, 2014

I don't do your method, and don't plan on it BUT I can see how it work, why it works and that it makes complete sense that it does work.

For some people no water changes will be a big benifit and DSR will be brilliant to them.

Personally I am very lucky and live near a clean source of NSW (natural sea water) so I collect hundreds of lt at a time and store more than double my system volume in an ibc.

As I work away I need stability but also very very little for the wife to do.

We run a variant of balling using the lite fm traces but dosing it balanced like classic/triton. Basically the wife tests alk weekly and adjusts the doser for all 3 channels based on this.

When I am home I do 15% wc's twice a week for 4 weeks. What we find as we run at nsw levels even changing so much water for a month then nothing for a month it still provides stability we need for sps.
Also my wc's are semi automated so it really is no effort to do.

As with anything in this hobby, finding something that works for the tank, is comfortable to do financially and is easy enough that you won't get lazy about doing it is important.

Thanks for sharing your method Glen

glennf · Jul 6, 2014

chrisfraser05 said:
I don't do your method, and don't plan on it BUT I can see how it work, why it works and that it makes complete sense that it does work.

For some people no water changes will be a big benifit and DSR will be brilliant to them.

Personally I am very lucky and live near a clean source of NSW (natural sea water) so I collect hundreds of lt at a time and store more than double my system volume in an ibc.

As I work away I need stability but also very very little for the wife to do.

We run a variant of balling using the lite fm traces but dosing it balanced like classic/triton. Basically the wife tests alk weekly and adjusts the doser for all 3 channels based on this.

When I am home I do 15% wc's twice a week for 4 weeks. What we find as we run at nsw levels even changing so much water for a month then nothing for a month it still provides stability we need for sps.
Also my wc's are semi automated so it really is no effort to do.

As with anything in this hobby, finding something that works for the tank, is comfortable to do financially and is easy enough that you won't get lazy about doing it is important.

Thanks for sharing your method Glen

See.. that's the right attitude and input we need. i am glad you share your experience how wc is working fine for you. In your case having nsw available so close is a great advantage. Also having space available for the automated holding and wc tank is very convenient.
There are great tanks out there working with wc. So that need not prove and has never been a debate.

edwardw771 · Jul 6, 2014

Following

Paul B · Jul 6, 2014

The Dutch have been keeping saltwater fish longer than us Americans. All my older books from when the hobby started were translated from Dutch including my water chemistry books. I think far to much emphasis is put on water changes, but I think eventually all tanks need a water change or they will start to decline. But most tanks should be able to easily go 2 or 5 years with no changes. If your tank looks better after a water change that means your tank is on the verge of crashing because you should see no difference with new water unless your tank is declining in between changes. I change water 4 or 5 times a year, sometimes more sometimes less depending on how I feel as I have no schedules. My bacteria are doing what they are paid to do and we are just here to give the bacteria something to make fun of.

Most people trying to share how they do without WC, are being declared stupid and ignorant.
I think some have a good point, but some are ignorant also (as with any other subject).

Because being criticized constantly, those people don't even bother sharing. Why should they ????

By thinking out of the box and share we all learn and move forward.

I myself am criticized constantly for using a reverse UG filter, that is because virtually no one uses them and the people who are criticizing are ignorant of how they work as they never used them. They won't openly say anything to me because none of them have a system that has lasted longer than mine but if I set this tank up today, I would be laughed out of the hobby and no one would take me seriously. Water changes or no water changes are the same thing but plenty of tanks run with no water changes and many of them look just fine. That proves that it can be done. It is a personal preference if that is how you want to run your system.
I don't have any test kits which is another reason people think I am nuts, or at least very lucky. Luck has nothing to do with it, observation is the key to this hobby but unfortunately the "knowledge" is largely driven by rumor and many of those rumors are started with people with very little experience. For instance someone will state that they eliminated hair algae with snails, slugs, Pepto Bismol or Coca Cola and in time, it becomes fact.
I cringe when I read all the ich, algae and cyano remedies and I choose to forgo entering those discussions as I am tired of hearing about garlic, cleaner wrasses, magnesium, flow and old light bulbs, all things that have nothing to do with eliminating anything except money from your wallet. :crazy:

kidtango · Jul 6, 2014

Im very interested to hear more!!!! Please share.

glennf · Jul 6, 2014

Paul B said:
The Dutch have been keeping saltwater fish longer than us Americans. All my older books from when the hobby started were translated from Dutch including my water chemistry books. I think far to much emphasis is put on water changes, but I think eventually all tanks need a water change or they will start to decline. But most tanks should be able to easily go 2 or 5 years with no changes. If your tank looks better after a water change that means your tank is on the verge of crashing because you should see no difference with new water unless your tank is declining in between changes. I change water 4 or 5 times a year, sometimes more sometimes less depending on how I feel as I have no schedules. My bacteria are doing what they are paid to do and we are just here to give the bacteria something to make fun of.

I myself am criticized constantly for using a reverse UG filter, that is because virtually no one uses them and the people who are criticizing are ignorant of how they work as they never used them. They won't openly say anything to me because none of them have a system that has lasted longer than mine but if I set this tank up today, I would be laughed out of the hobby and no one would take me seriously. Water changes or no water changes are the same thing but plenty of tanks run with no water changes and many of them look just fine. That proves that it can be done. It is a personal preference if that is how you want to run your system.
I don't have any test kits which is another reason people think I am nuts, or at least very lucky. Luck has nothing to do with it, observation is the key to this hobby but unfortunately the "knowledge" is largely driven by rumor and many of those rumors are started with people with very little experience. For instance someone will state that they eliminated hair algae with snails, slugs, Pepto Bismol or Coca Cola and in time, it becomes fact.
I cringe when I read all the ich, algae and cyano remedies and I choose to forgo entering those discussions as I am tired of hearing about garlic, cleaner wrasses, magnesium, flow and old light bulbs, all things that have nothing to do with eliminating anything except money from your wallet. :crazy:

Hai paulb nice you join with your point of vieuw.
Ik know your reputation and are familiar with your way. Not that i read you massively large treads, but because i can follow you way of thinking.
I myself am electronical schooled in the digital age. My core business was computers. Since age nine busy with the aquariums, and since end 2004 a reefer.
I have bread with clownsfish seahorses and pipefish. I even had a tank wit 600 tank bread clownfish.
So you can say i have had a fair share of experience in every aspect of this hobby.

Paul B · Jul 6, 2014

It sounds like you are a very accomplished aquarist. :becky:

reefwiser · Jul 6, 2014

Paul , I have always followed the Dutch and German Aquarist. I bought many german Marine Aquarium books and would sit down and hand translate each one.
I think Glenn is doing very interesting work and you can see by the results that it works. Like you I am not interested in the water changes one way or another.
Its the chemistry the I am interested in. I am so glad that Glenn is sharing with us.

Paul B · Jul 6, 2014

I am also glad. My chemistry book was by Guido Huckstead. "Water Chemistry for the Advanced Aquarist"

reefwiser · Jul 6, 2014

I have Alf Nilsen and Svein Fossa 3 volumes of the Modern Reef Aquarium in both German and English. I have Alf and Svein sign them at the MACNA that Alf attended.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1404691704.922051.jpg

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1404691728.720417.jpg

Paul B · Jul 6, 2014

Very nice. I probably have that one someplace. I still have a bunch of these and some older.

reefwiser · Jul 6, 2014

Hey that's not a designer clown.

Girlsfish2 · Jul 6, 2014

fwiw i think your method is truly fascinating and wish I was as knowledgeable as you guys are and able to do something like this which looks successful. I have watched your YouTube videos over and over again and your aquarium is truly breathtaking

glennf · Jul 7, 2014

Mark... said:
Curiously following. Most of my numbers on my new 180 are very close to the ones recommended. I have been doing 10-15% water changes every 2 weeks so far. Hardly any bioload due to QTing new arrivals slowly.(One happy cromisin in DT and a damsel in sump/frag area) Few corals I have in tank not looking great so far.Skimmer pulling lots of junk even with light biolaod. Diatoms just about done thanks to cuc and felt socks.

I believe wc should be done in cases of surplus which can't be managed. But nowadays there are enough options to manage this in an responsible way.

Depletion is much easier to manage. This can be done by precisly dosing.

Just doing water changes when done with the wrong salt can trigger unwanted events
There are many salt mixes, most if the quality salt are rich on minerals and nutrients. But there are also salts wich have very low minerals/nutrients.

To detemine which salt works best you you need to know what the status of your tank is .
Using a rich salt in a cycling tank with no growth is likely to boast the nuisanse algae.
Using a salt poor on minerals on a fully grown sps tank is asking for trouble.
So there is no bad salt , there is only salt that suits your need.
That is why many manufacturers have more than one salt in their program.
You need to pick the right on that suits your need.

reefwiser · Jul 7, 2014

Girlsfish2 said:
fwiw i think your method is truly fascinating and wish I was as knowledgeable as you guys are and able to do something like this which looks successful. I have watched your YouTube videos over and over again and your aquarium is truly breathtaking

You can do something like this. Saltwater Reefs take a lot of learning about the requirements of each coral and fish in your tank. Patience is a virtue that pays off. Read the books and search out hobbyist like Glenn who are sharing how to do it. Take your time and slowly add animals to your tank. Having been in the fish keeping hobby for over 50 years now. The one thing that I see that causes people to have problems and drop out of the hobby is doing things to fast. Also buying tons of equipment and throwing equipment at the problem thinking that will lead you to a successful reef tank. When it just causes you to give up when throwing money at the problem doesn't help. Only knowledge and patience and hard work is the answer.

glennf · Jul 7, 2014

Paul B said:
It sounds like you are a very accomplished aquarist. :becky:

All i know and tell about is my own experience. I only found the forums in 2008. Before that time i had a succesfull running computer business. Now i am early retired by own choice and spend my time doing what i love to do. I don't read that much an don't have many books.
My lecture is the VWO (college) chemistry book, which i borrowed from my son.
My son is now 3th year university dental student and he is the one i brainstorm with, when it get to complicated for me.
This is how the understanding of chemistry got started.

This all i have on seawater books