All For Reef

[CodyF.]

Made the DIY calibration solution. 4 cups of water & 6 tablespoons-didn’t have anything other wise to measure 2 liters. Added 79 grams of Morton’s table salt.
Calibrated my refractometer and my salinity is 1.023 or around 31/32. Like you guys suspected. My salinity is low.

I have a few errands to run today. I will let the two liters warm up to room temp. and recalibrate and retest. That said. I’m not convinced it’ll be much better. Ironically, I’ve been reading on how calibration solution is inaccurate.

My purified water came out my garage. So it’s about 50°F - thereabouts- so it should stabilize to around 70°s or so. My tank runs at around 78°-78.5°.

Thanks again!! You guys helped out tremendously

 

[CodyF.]

150 gallon tank, 1rst year of it being set back up after a move,
I dose all for reef spread out 24hours a day to maintain calcium levels, evenly…i did originally have a ramp up and down through the day but have landed on evenly through the day for ease of juggling other dosing heads
I dose soda ash to supplement the alk levels, it’s been a moving target but my alk consumption can get aggressive at times and even out at others… where my calk and mag have been consistent with the afr

Thanks for this info. I know ALK will swing with consumption (growth). But I felt like I was chasing a moving target consistently. That said, I was also not happy with my calcium. I felt at 380 it was just terribly low. However, that’s figured out now. My refractometer calibration solution was not accurate and my salinity is low. Which makes sense now.

 

[Hairyteeth]

The right salinity will change everything

 

[CodyF.]

The right salinity will change everything

100%. I mean, I’ve been reefing for a bit now. You’d think I would know better. lol. But, I just assumed the calibration solution would, I don’t know, like calibrate the tools correctly. Nonetheless, learning has been had.

 

[Hairyteeth]

The funny things we think we’re doing right and something’s actually off

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You can but its a silly way to do it as the amount to raise it is not going to be the same amount to keep it balanced.

The instructions even say to not dose AFR until your lvls are balanced to your chosen lvls.

I disagree with such a recommendation with respect to alk raising.

AFR is perfectly fine for raising alk. Baking soda is certainly cheaper, but nothing bad happens from using AFR.

Using it to raise calcium is a terrible idea as alk will shoot through the roof.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What is the rationale for dosing AFR at lights on?

AFR adds formate. As formate is converted to bicarbonate, oxygen and pH are lowered and alk is added.

When the light cycle gets going pH and O2 are rising, and alk is lowering.

Hence, adding it early in the light cycle makes sense to me and that is when I do it (I use a dosing pump and it starts about 2 h after main tnak lights come on).

FWIW, as Rishma stated, the "max dose" of AFR that TM mentions is based on O2 concerns, but Hans-Werner also notes that they have not seen any actual issues in a reef tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was dosing 57mg in the morning right before lights on. That worked fine except I always had an alkalinity swing of around .75 to .85 throughout the day. Once I started spreading out my dose I got that to .2 to .3 which I assume is within testing margin of error. I use a trident to test and was letting it test quite often when I was looking at that and finding my dosage.

How much total alk are you dosing?

What was the shape of this swing vs time??

 

[Reef.]

I disagree with such a recommendation with respect to alk raising.

AFR is perfectly fine for raising alk. Baking soda is certainly cheaper, but nothing bad happens from using AFR.

Using it to raise calcium is a terrible idea as alk will shoot through the roof.

I said a few post back you could use it, I didn’t say anything bad would happen, my point was the alk in AFR takes time to hit the tank, you then have to adjust the dosage to the tank’s requirements…far easier to use a different product such as baking soda, get your alk stable then dose the amount of AFR the tank uses…the OP did start with saying they couldn’t pin their alk down, which is generally what happens when you try and use AFR to raise alk in my experience, fine to use but far easier methods .

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I said a few post back you could use it, I didn’t say anything bad would happen, my point was the alk in AFR takes time to hit the tank, you then have to adjust the dosage to the tank’s requirements…far easier to use a different product such as baking soda, get your alk stable then dose the amount of AFR the tank uses…the OP did start with saying they couldn’t pin their alk down, which is generally what happens when you try and use AFR to raise alk in my experience, fine to use but far easier methods .

I thought it was pretty clear what I disagreed with by quoting it, such as your assertion that it was a silly way to boost alk.

We can just agree to disagree, but I think if alk is low, then one needs to adjust the AFR anyway or it will just get low again, even if you use a different product for a one time boost, and it makes more sense to me to slowly raise the AFR dose to bring the tank back into your target alk range without other additives. That is what I do on my system that has steadying rising alk demand, and hence a steadily increasing need for AFR, or else alk declines below my target range.

 

[Reef.]

I thought it was pretty clear what I disagreed with by quoting it, such as your assertion that it was a silly way to boost alk.

We can just agree to disagree, but I think if alk is low, then one needs to adjust the AFR anyway or it will just get low again, even if you use a different product for a one time boost, and it makes more sense to me to slowly raise the AFR dose to bring the tank back into your target alk range without other additives. That is what I do on my system that has steadying rising alk demand, and hence a steadily increasing need for AFR, or else alk declines below my target range.

People seem to be getting upset with the word silly…silly meaning when there are far easier ways to do something, picking the harder way, to me is silly…AFR takes days to hit the tank, in the mean time your alk is still dropping, maybe if you are lucky or good at maths you hit on the correct amount to dose, if not you try again, with another 2-3 days, wait to see if you hit the target this time.

As said the OP seems to be in this cycle, hence why I suggested a different/easier method…seems my 2 mistakes were using the word silly and quoting that TM also suggests this is not the best way to raise alk. they were smarter than me and didn’t use the word silly.

 

[rtparty]

People seem to be getting upset with the word silly…silly meaning when there are far easier ways to do something, picking the harder way, to me is silly…AFR takes days to hit the tank, in the mean time your alk is still dropping, maybe if you are lucky or good at maths you hit on the correct amount to dose, if not you try again, with another 2-3 days, wait to see if you hit the target this time.

As said the OP seems to be in this cycle, hence why I suggested a different/easier method…seems my 2 mistakes were using the word silly and quoting that TM also suggests this is not the best way to raise alk. they were smarter than me and didn’t use the word silly.

It seems it only takes hours and not days as noted by multiple people.

While TM is one of the better companies, they have plenty of instructions that make no sense and have no scientific backing. Using calcium measurements for AFR being one. The maximum dosage for AFR being another. We’ve known for years their max dosage is incorrect. Yet, they don’t change their instructions. Seems odd

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

People seem to be getting upset with the word silly…silly meaning when there are far easier ways to do something, picking the harder way, to me is silly…AFR takes days to hit the tank, in the mean time your alk is still dropping, maybe if you are lucky or good at maths you hit on the correct amount to dose, if not you try again, with another 2-3 days, wait to see if you hit the target this time.

As said the OP seems to be in this cycle, hence why I suggested a different/easier method…seems my 2 mistakes were using the word silly and quoting that TM also suggests this is not the best way to raise alk. they were smarter than me and didn’t use the word silly.

Quoting a direction from a manufacturer that I disagree with will always draw a disagreement from me. lol

We can just disagree. Nothing wrong with different opinions on how to best do something.

 

[CodyF.]

I thought it was pretty clear what I disagreed with by quoting it, such as your assertion that it was a silly way to boost alk.

We can just agree to disagree, but I think if alk is low, then one needs to adjust the AFR anyway or it will just get low again, even if you use a different product for a one time boost, and it makes more sense to me to slowly raise the AFR dose to bring the tank back into your target alk range without other additives. That is what I do on my system that has steadying rising alk demand, and hence a steadily increasing need for AFR, or else alk declines below my target range.

People seem to be getting upset with the word silly…silly meaning when there are far easier ways to do something, picking the harder way, to me is silly…AFR takes days to hit the tank, in the mean time your alk is still dropping, maybe if you are lucky or good at maths you hit on the correct amount to dose, if not you try again, with another 2-3 days, wait to see if you hit the target this time.

As said the OP seems to be in this cycle, hence why I suggested a different/easier method…seems my 2 mistakes were using the word silly and quoting that TM also suggests this is not the best way to raise alk. they were smarter than me and didn’t use the word silly.

I actually am using another product to raise ALK. My problem is the AFR isn’t holding my demand. I was only asking how much AFR is too much.

And is there any adverse effects of using more. Would I need to start using soda ash? Etc….

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I actually am using another product to raise ALK. My problem is the AFR isn’t holding my demand. I was only asking how much AFR is too much.

And is there any adverse effects of using more. Would I need to start using soda ash? Etc….

There is no adverse effect from use that is determined by alk test, and using more each day will solve the shortfall in alk. I'd steadily up the AFR until the alk is steady. As I mentioned, that is how I address falling alk.

 

[twentyleagues]

Quoting a direction from a manufacturer that I disagree with will always draw a disagreement from me. lol

We can just disagree. Nothing wrong with different opinions on how to best do something.

People seem to be getting upset with the word silly…silly meaning when there are far easier ways to do something, picking the harder way, to me is silly…AFR takes days to hit the tank, in the mean time your alk is still dropping, maybe if you are lucky or good at maths you hit on the correct amount to dose, if not you try again, with another 2-3 days, wait to see if you hit the target this time.

As said the OP seems to be in this cycle, hence why I suggested a different/easier method…seems my 2 mistakes were using the word silly and quoting that TM also suggests this is not the best way to raise alk. they were smarter than me and didn’t use the word silly.

It seems it only takes hours and not days as noted by multiple people.

While TM is one of the better companies, they have plenty of instructions that make no sense and have no scientific backing. Using calcium measurements for AFR being one. The maximum dosage for AFR being another. We’ve known for years their max dosage is incorrect. Yet, they don’t change their instructions. Seems odd

I think the only reason TM suggests that you use something else to get to the numbers you want is at the very start of using AFR. Once you have started using AFR there is no issue upping the AFR dose to get your numbers back in line as @Randy Holmes-Farley and others have stated, I dont think it would be an issue either way but the lag may get some people at the start. I use one dose in the middle of my lighting, currently I am dosing 42ml on a 120g water volume system. As @rtparty says I can see the AFR alk adjustments in about 6-7 hours if I test for it but I only test alk on a weekly basis unless I need to increase my dosage then its daily to make sure I didnt increase too much. I test calcium and mag monthly and I see no major issues in either (I know Randy dont worry about mag but I gotta fwiw I dont do anything if its off). Its probably the easiest method I have ever used.

 

[rishma]

I actually am using another product to raise ALK. My problem is the AFR isn’t holding my demand. I was only asking how much AFR is too much.

And is there any adverse effects of using more. Would I need to start using soda ash? Etc….

Note- if you dose soda ash to raise alk on a regular basis and don’t also dose magnesium and calcium, your magnesium and calcium will likely decline over time as that extra alkalinity is consumed.

 

[CodyF.]

I actually am using another product to raise ALK. My problem is the AFR isn’t holding my demand. I was only asking how much AFR is too much.

And is there any adverse effects of using more. Would I need to start using soda ash? Etc….

There is no adverse effect from use that is determined by alk test, and using more each day will solve the shortfall in alk. I'd steadily up the AFR until the alk is steady. As I mentioned, that is how I address falling alk.

Thanks Randy.

 

[CodyF.]

I actually am using another product to raise ALK. My problem is the AFR isn’t holding my demand. I was only asking how much AFR is too much.

And is there any adverse effects of using more. Would I need to start using soda ash? Etc….

Note- if you dose soda ash to raise alk on a regular basis and don’t also dose magnesium and calcium, your magnesium and calcium will likely decline over time as that extra alkalinity is consumed.

Thanks!

I didn’t know that. I don’t use soda-ash but was very interested, until this conversation. I do use the part 2 when needed from the 4 part RedSea coral care. It’s less and less-I heard some rumors and wasn’t sure if true. But again, this post has straighten all that out. Specially from people who are using it first hand and dosing more than recommend.

 

[CodyF.]

Quoting a direction from a manufacturer that I disagree with will always draw a disagreement from me. lol

We can just disagree. Nothing wrong with different opinions on how to best do something.

People seem to be getting upset with the word silly…silly meaning when there are far easier ways to do something, picking the harder way, to me is silly…AFR takes days to hit the tank, in the mean time your alk is still dropping, maybe if you are lucky or good at maths you hit on the correct amount to dose, if not you try again, with another 2-3 days, wait to see if you hit the target this time.

As said the OP seems to be in this cycle, hence why I suggested a different/easier method…seems my 2 mistakes were using the word silly and quoting that TM also suggests this is not the best way to raise alk. they were smarter than me and didn’t use the word silly.

It seems it only takes hours and not days as noted by multiple people.

While TM is one of the better companies, they have plenty of instructions that make no sense and have no scientific backing. Using calcium measurements for AFR being one. The maximum dosage for AFR being another. We’ve known for years their max dosage is incorrect. Yet, they don’t change their instructions. Seems odd

I think the only reason TM suggests that you use something else to get to the numbers you want is at the very start of using AFR. Once you have started using AFR there is no issue upping the AFR dose to get your numbers back in line as @Randy Holmes-Farley and others have stated, I dont think it would be an issue either way but the lag may get some people at the start. I use one dose in the middle of my lighting, currently I am dosing 42ml on a 120g water volume system. As @rtparty says I can see the AFR alk adjustments in about 6-7 hours if I test for it but I only test alk on a weekly basis unless I need to increase my dosage then its daily to make sure I didnt increase too much. I test calcium and mag monthly and I see no major issues in either (I know Randy dont worry about mag but I gotta fwiw I dont do anything if its off). Its probably the easiest method I have ever used.

Thanks for that info and re-affirming the use of AFR. I agree! It’s a very simple system. I think I will like it much much more knowing you can’t really over use it. And of course, after realizing my salinity was also out. I did water change today and brought the salinity up from 1.023 to 1.024. Once back at 1.026 (35) I will test calcium again. Just to know.