fishless sps

[ScottB]

I have had corals in my fishless sps tank for two weeks now under an old 400w radium bulb.

I had zero nitrate an hour or two before I took the pictures(I dosed nitrate to 2 ppm). The Hyperberry has definitely been incrusting. I believe all corals have been growing. The Ultimate Soli had really good polyp extention at night.(I should have removed the dead coral, it dying wasn't my fault). I think the millipora may be recovering. I added some activated carbon to the tank maybe about a week ago because I think there could have been chloramine in the tank water(I will change the ro/di carbon blocks tomorrow).

What are you going to differently with this fishless system versus the one you started last September?

I've yet to see a fishless SPS build thread thread that lasted more than a couple months. I tried it a few times when I was a newb but they never lasted. I'd have a better shot now given several years more experience, but I would never put anything valuable in it.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

The nano reef jars and vase builders always run fishless. Some contain hardy SPS. They rely on heavy feeding of frozen copepods once a week and a weekly water change. I can't see why that would not work for acros if it were scaled to up to allow proper amounts of flow and dosing to maintain levels.

 

[Jon_W79]

What are you going to differently with this fishless system versus the one you started last September?

I've yet to see a fishless SPS build thread thread that lasted more than a couple months. I tried it a few times when I was a newb but they never lasted. I'd have a better shot now given several years more experience, but I would never put anything valuable in it.

It is the same 100 gallon system. The corals in the September pictures died. I am pretty sure the reason the corals died was because of zero phosphate, and phosphate fluctuations. I thought I had phosphate under control, but I think phosphate consumption changed because of a change in water flow(I think that phosphate consumption was mostly from dry rock). I bought those corals at that time because of a 43% off sale(the sale was hard to resist). At the time hair algae was the dominant algae, and I think I was only dosing vodka for the organic carbon source(I don't dose fulvic acid anymore), now sea lettuce is the dominant algae. For organic carbon I am dosing 1 ml of vinegar and 2 ml of a 1/5 dilution of ATI Nutrition C at the beginning of the photoperiod, and also I am dosing 4 ml of Acropower at the beginning of the photoperiod(I think that algae also likes amino acids). I am dosing a mixture of ammonium and phosphate for 1 minute every 7 minutes during the main tank photoperiod right now. I change 10 gallon of water a week, and each week I dose enough thiamine to add 1 ppm to 10 gallons, enough pantothenic acid to add 1ppm to 10 gallons, enough biotin to add 1 ug/l to 10 gallons, and enough B12(using B12 drops) to add 0.5 ug/l to 10 gallons. I dose 25 ml of Cheatogro a week, and sometimes I dose iron and iodine. I use a Red Sea Prism skimmer. The clean up crew is two Astrea snails and a Mexican Turbo snail(I have a lot of pods, and I think there is some other kind of tiny creature).

 

[ScottB]

It is the same 100 gallon system. The corals in the September pictures died. I am pretty sure the reason the corals died was because of zero phosphate, and phosphate fluctuations. I thought I had phosphate under control, but I think phosphate consumption changed because of a change in water flow(I think that phosphate consumption was mostly from dry rock). I bought those corals at that time because of a 43% off sale(the sale was hard to resist). At the time hair algae was the dominant algae, and I think I was only dosing vodka for the organic carbon source(I don't dose fulvic acid anymore), now sea lettuce is the dominant algae. For organic carbon I am dosing 1 ml of vinegar and 2 ml of a 1/5 dilution of ATI Nutrition C at the beginning of the photoperiod, and also I am dosing 4 ml of Acropower at the beginning of the photoperiod(I think that algae also likes amino acids). I change 10 gallon of water a week, and each week I dose enough thiamine to add 1 ppm to 10 gallons, enough pantothenic acid to add 1ppm to 10 gallons, enough biotin to add 1 ug/l to 10 gallons, and enough B12(using B12 drops) to add 0.5 ug/l to 10 gallons. I dose 25 ml of Cheatogro a week, and sometimes I dose iron and iodine. I use a Red Sea Prism skimmer. The clean up crew is two Astrea snails and a Mexican Turbo snail(I have a lot of pods, and I think there is some other kind of tiny creature).

Interesting. I am unfamiliar with this multi-vitamin approach. Is that a published aquaculture method?

 

[Jon_W79]

Interesting. I am unfamiliar with this multi-vitamin approach. Is that a published aquaculture method?

No. I got the vitamin dosage information from the pdf below. When it comes to heterotrophic bacteria, I don't think a reef tank works the same way the ocean does(I think one reason is that I don't think competition from nitrifying bacteria is the same). In a reef tank I think that B vitamins normally come from the fish hindgut and maybe from the food the fish didn't digest. If you dose ammonium and you don't add the B vitamins, I believe that you will have a cyano problem, and I believe you will probably have problems growing heterotrophic bacteria(in a fishless tank). Ammonia is the most preferred nitrogen source for heterotrophic bacteria, in the ocean bacteria also like amino acids. I believe that sps need heterotrophic bacteria in the water so that they can consume it.

Uptake of ammonium and nitrate by heterotrophic bacteria and phytoplankton in the sub-Arctic Pacific

Heterotrophic bacteria are known to account frequently for a large fraction of NH+4 uptake in many oceans, but NO-3 uptake by bacteria is not thought …

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[Jon_W79]

No. I got the vitamin dosage information from the pdf below. When it comes to heterotrophic bacteria, I don't think a reef tank works the same way the ocean does(I think one reason is that I don't think competition from nitrifying bacteria is the same). In a reef tank I think that B vitamins normally come from the fish hindgut and maybe from the food the fish didn't digest. If you dose ammonium and you don't add the B vitamins, I believe that you will have a cyano problem, and I believe you will probably have problems growing heterotrophic bacteria(in a fishless tank). Ammonia is the most preferred nitrogen source for heterotrophic bacteria, in the ocean bacteria also like amino acids. I believe that sps need heterotrophic bacteria in the water so that they can consume it.

Uptake of ammonium and nitrate by heterotrophic bacteria and phytoplankton in the sub-Arctic Pacific

Heterotrophic bacteria are known to account frequently for a large fraction of NH+4 uptake in many oceans, but NO-3 uptake by bacteria is not thought …

www.sciencedirect.com

If you dose ammonium and organic carbon in a fishless tank and you don't dose the B vitamins, I believe that you will have cyano problems.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

If you dose ammonium and organic carbon in a fishless tank and you don't dose the B vitamins, I believe that you will have cyano problems.

Hmm, and if you dose B Vitamins in a system with fish, that has cyano, does the presence of elevated B vitamins help other organisms to outcompete the cyano?

 

[Jon_W79]

Hmm, and if you dose B Vitamins in a system with fish, that has cyano, does the presence of elevated B vitamins help other organisms to outcompete the cyano?

It depends on if the level of B vitamins can be improved. I believe the newer the tank, the more water changes, the less the fish mass, and the less the fish are fed, etc, the more likely adding the B vitamins will help.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

It depends on if the level of B vitamins can be improved. I believe the newer the tank, the more water changes, the less the fish mass, and the less the fish are fed, etc, the more likely adding the B vitamins will help.

Very interesting premise. You often hear about inorganic nutrients, and aminos, being important, but rarely about vitamins.

I am looking forward to your results in your system employing this technique.

 

[Jon_W79]

Here is the second to third week growth of the Hyperberry. I will post more pictures tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Jon_W79]

Here is one week of growth of my Raindrops on Roses Mille that I lost more than 50% of. I looked at pictures of it on Battlecorals, and the new entrusting growth is white. I believe this coral is recovering, it has a hole in the bottom right side that has almost closed (you can see the growth in the pictures). I don't believe an acro will recover from almost dying like this in less than good conditions. If you look at the coralite on the left outer side in the middle, it is shorter, I believe it is shorter because of new growth on the left side.

 

[Jon_W79]

I noticed two or three days ago that I have coralline algae growing in my tank, It will be interesting to see how fast it grows(I don't think it is growing slowly).

 

[ScottB]

No. I got the vitamin dosage information from the pdf below. When it comes to heterotrophic bacteria, I don't think a reef tank works the same way the ocean does(I think one reason is that I don't think competition from nitrifying bacteria is the same). In a reef tank I think that B vitamins normally come from the fish hindgut and maybe from the food the fish didn't digest. If you dose ammonium and you don't add the B vitamins, I believe that you will have a cyano problem, and I believe you will probably have problems growing heterotrophic bacteria(in a fishless tank). Ammonia is the most preferred nitrogen source for heterotrophic bacteria, in the ocean bacteria also like amino acids. I believe that sps need heterotrophic bacteria in the water so that they can consume it.

Uptake of ammonium and nitrate by heterotrophic bacteria and phytoplankton in the sub-Arctic Pacific

Heterotrophic bacteria are known to account frequently for a large fraction of NH+4 uptake in many oceans, but NO-3 uptake by bacteria is not thought …

www.sciencedirect.com

Thank you. I did read the abstracts. Slightly beyond my paygrade but interesting.

Separately, won't you also need to solve for the absence of phosphorus? It is a critical macronutrient for the system.

 

[Jon_W79]

Thank you. I did read the abstracts. Slightly beyond my paygrade but interesting.

Separately, won't you also need to solve for the absence of phosphorus? It is a critical macronutrient for the system.

I'm dosing a mixture of ammonium chloride and tri-sodium phosphate. I am still trying to find the nutrient balance in the tank. My tank keeps needing more and more ammonium and phosphate. I increased the ammonium and phosphate dosing last night from dosing for 1 minute every 7 minutes to dosing for 1 minute every 6 minutes, and I dosed some nitrate and phosphate.

 

[Arthur_Dent]

Interesting thread. Following.

 

[ScottB]

I'm dosing a mixture of ammonium chloride and tri-sodium phosphate. I am still trying to find the nutrient balance in the tank. My tank keeps needing more and more ammonium and phosphate. I increased the ammonium and phosphate dosing last night from dosing for 1 minute every 7 minutes to dosing for 1 minute every 6 minutes, and I dosed some nitrate and phosphate.

I am not experienced wit dosing ammonium, but have dosed TSP solution many times. Not sure how much rock (aragonite) you have, but it can require a shocking amount of phosphate dosing to keep some phosphate measurable in the water. It binds to the aragonite. I had about 125 lbs of rock and dosed almost 2 liters before the rock was saturated enough to leach back into the water. As soon as I hit that saturation point though, my need for dosing stopped completely and immediately.

Something else to note. If you are nitrate limited at first, then you correct that with ammonium, whatever phosphate you have will get hammered lower real fast.

 

[Jon_W79]

I am not experienced wit dosing ammonium, but have dosed TSP solution many times. Not sure how much rock (aragonite) you have, but it can require a shocking amount of phosphate dosing to keep some phosphate measurable in the water. It binds to the aragonite. I had about 125 lbs of rock and dosed almost 2 liters before the rock was saturated enough to leach back into the water. As soon as I hit that saturation point though, my need for dosing stopped completely and immediately.

Something else to note. If you are nitrate limited at first, then you correct that with ammonium, whatever phosphate you have will get hammered lower real fast.

Yeah I definitely agree about aragonite being able to remove a lot of phosphate, I don't think the rock is removing phosphate anymore. I have been using the Hanna Checker and API test for measuring phosphate. Last week the API test said that phosphate was 0.25 ppm, I thought this meant that I probably at least had a good amount of phosphate. One or two days ago I measured 0.01 ppm phosphate(Hanna Checker)and 1 ppm nitrate, the phosphate level was kind of scary(I probably shouldn't trust the API test at all anymore),I think I should be quite a bit more concerned about 0 phosphate than 0 nitrate. I think the sea lettuce is putting some kind of chemical in the water that may be able to prevent many types of dinoflagellates from growing, but I don't think I'm going to depend on that very much. I do believe that sea lettuce puts something in the water that reduces hair algae growth.

 

[jdiefenbaugh]

Some of the grow out systems I maintained that were fishless, or had 1 or 2 for aiptasia/algae control. Corals grew really well, they'd get a mixture of reef nutrition products 1x day. Probably 2000 corals, and around 2000 gallons total.

 

[wattson]

11

 

[Jon_W79]

Here are one week growth pictures, from today and one week ago. I think hair algae affected the encrusting of the Hyperberry. You can definitely see the coralline growth. I don't believe the acropora have shown any signs of deterioration. You can see where I broke the Ultimate Soli off the frag rack. I have had the corals one month, I think that in the next month most people will have reached a verdict about
growing sps this way(whether it probably works long term, etc, if they haven't already).