Food for predator fish

[WesternSpyKolya]

So yesterday I got 1 popeye sea goblin and 1 dwarf zebra lionfish. I'm thinking of feeding them mollies since they eat live foods (currently) but as I wean them to frozen food what would be adequate to feed them? I know foods high in thiaminase can lead to an early death so I'm avoiding them as much as possible but could anyone with prior experience help me?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here is some info I had written up about thiaminase:

Feeding whole fish to predators can be an issue depending on the species of fish you are feeding them. Some types of food fish are high in thiaminase, which breaks down vitamin B1. Almost all seafoods are also low in vitamin E.


Thiaminase
Thiaminase is an enzyme that metabolizes or breaks down thiamine (vitamin B1). In high enough concentrations in food, thiaminase will create thiamin deficient diets in fish. This is a common, yet serious problem with predatory fish that are fed feeder goldfish, as goldfish are very high in thiaminase. Lionfish, piranha and oscars cichlids were commonly fed all-goldfish diets by home aquarists. Health issues in their fish were then very common; fatty liver disease in lionfish, pica in piranha (where they eat each other to try to get more thiamin) and HLLE in oscars. Fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase can be supplemented with thiamin. Conversely, aquarists can avoid feeding fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase.

The actual impact of thiaminase on a fish’s diet depends on three factors:
What proportion of thiaminase-containing food is fed to the fish
What the concentration of thiaminase is in the food item
How much vitamin B1 is already present in the food

The following is a partial list of seafoods that contain and don’t contain thiaminase:

Species high in thiaminase
Anchovy (Engraulis sp.)
Atlantic herring (Clupea harengus)
Capelin (Mallotus villosus)
Carp (Cyprinus carpio)
Clams (family Veneridae)
Goldfish (Carassius auratus)
Lobster (Homarus americanus)
Menhaden (Brevoortia spp.)
Minnows (Cyprinids)
Mussels (Mytilus spp.)
Rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax)
Sardine (Harengula spp.)
Scallops (Pecten spp.)
Shrimp and prawns (various species)
Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)
White bass (Morone chrysops)
Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)


Species lower in thiaminase
Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)
Atlantic hake (Merluccius bilinearis)
Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)
Atlantic mackerel (Scomber scombrus)
Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar)
Brown trout (Salmo trutta)
Catfish (Ictalurus and related spp)
Cisco (Coregonus spp.)
Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)
Flounder / sole (Pleuronectes and related spp.)
Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)
Hake (Urophycis spp)
Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)
Mullet (Mugilidae spp)
Poecilids (Guppies, platies, mollies)
Pollock/Pollack (Pollachius spp.)
Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)
Tilapia (Oreochromis spp)
Worms (Lumbricus spp)


Silversides confusion – many aquarists feed frozen “silversides” to their aquarium animals. True silversides (Atherinids) are low in thiaminase. Many fish food manufacturers use other fish species and call them “silversides”. Some of those fish are actually smelts or sardines and are high in thiaminase. Of five products on the market that were looked at, only one contained actual silversides (Rowlett, 2017). True silversides will have two dorsal fins (the first one may lie close to the body). The smelts have an adipose fin and a single dorsal fin (like trout do).

 

[WesternSpyKolya]

Here is some info I had written up about thiaminase:

Feeding whole fish to predators can be an issue depending on the species of fish you are feeding them. Some types of food fish are high in thiaminase, which breaks down vitamin B1. Almost all seafoods are also low in vitamin E.


Thiaminase
Thiaminase is an enzyme that metabolizes or breaks down thiamine (vitamin B1). In high enough concentrations in food, thiaminase will create thiamin deficient diets in fish. This is a common, yet serious problem with predatory fish that are fed feeder goldfish, as goldfish are very high in thiaminase. Lionfish, piranha and oscars cichlids were commonly fed all-goldfish diets by home aquarists. Health issues in their fish were then very common; fatty liver disease in lionfish, pica in piranha (where they eat each other to try to get more thiamin) and HLLE in oscars. Fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase can be supplemented with thiamin. Conversely, aquarists can avoid feeding fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase.

The actual impact of thiaminase on a fish’s diet depends on three factors:
What proportion of thiaminase-containing food is fed to the fish
What the concentration of thiaminase is in the food item
How much vitamin B1 is already present in the food

The following is a partial list of seafoods that contain and don’t contain thiaminase:

Species high in thiaminase
Anchovy (Engraulis sp.)
Atlantic herring (Clupea harengus)
Capelin (Mallotus villosus)
Carp (Cyprinus carpio)
Clams (family Veneridae)
Goldfish (Carassius auratus)
Lobster (Homarus americanus)
Menhaden (Brevoortia spp.)
Minnows (Cyprinids)
Mussels (Mytilus spp.)
Rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax)
Sardine (Harengula spp.)
Scallops (Pecten spp.)
Shrimp and prawns (various species)
Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)
White bass (Morone chrysops)
Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)


Species lower in thiaminase
Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)
Atlantic hake (Merluccius bilinearis)
Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)
Atlantic mackerel (Scomber scombrus)
Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar)
Brown trout (Salmo trutta)
Catfish (Ictalurus and related spp)
Cisco (Coregonus spp.)
Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)
Flounder / sole (Pleuronectes and related spp.)
Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)
Hake (Urophycis spp)
Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)
Mullet (Mugilidae spp)
Poecilids (Guppies, platies, mollies)
Pollock/Pollack (Pollachius spp.)
Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)
Tilapia (Oreochromis spp)
Worms (Lumbricus spp)


Silversides confusion – many aquarists feed frozen “silversides” to their aquarium animals. True silversides (Atherinids) are low in thiaminase. Many fish food manufacturers use other fish species and call them “silversides”. Some of those fish are actually smelts or sardines and are high in thiaminase. Of five products on the market that were looked at, only one contained actual silversides (Rowlett, 2017). True silversides will have two dorsal fins (the first one may lie close to the body). The smelts have an adipose fin and a single dorsal fin (like trout do).

Thank you so much for the information Jay.

 

[WesternSpyKolya]

Jay do you have any recommendations about guppies or mollies, are they safe to feed?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay do you have any recommendations about guppies or mollies, are they safe to feed?

They are safer, they are considered lower in thiaminase.

 

[WesternSpyKolya]

They are safer, they are considered lower in thiaminase.

Thanks for the help Jay! Appreciate it.

 

[WesternSpyKolya]

They are safer, they are considered lower in thiaminase.

Sorry to bother you Jay, I promise this will be my last question but could I feed cherry shrimp (gut loaded with fish food) to my zebra lion? He seems to enjoy them, do you have any info on if they are safe or not?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry to bother you Jay, I promise this will be my last question but could I feed cherry shrimp (gut loaded with fish food) to my zebra lion? He seems to enjoy them, do you have any info on if they are safe or not?

I've never fed out Neocaridina shrimp, but as far as I know, they are safe (but small and expensive) food items.

 

[WesternSpyKolya]

I've never fed out Neocaridina shrimp, but as far as I know, they are safe (but small and expensive) food items.

Thank you for the information Jay. I'll feed him cherry shrimps until he's large enough to eat mollies.

 

[bkwonnn]

Here is some info I had written up about thiaminase:

Feeding whole fish to predators can be an issue depending on the species of fish you are feeding them. Some types of food fish are high in thiaminase, which breaks down vitamin B1. Almost all seafoods are also low in vitamin E.


Thiaminase
Thiaminase is an enzyme that metabolizes or breaks down thiamine (vitamin B1). In high enough concentrations in food, thiaminase will create thiamin deficient diets in fish. This is a common, yet serious problem with predatory fish that are fed feeder goldfish, as goldfish are very high in thiaminase. Lionfish, piranha and oscars cichlids were commonly fed all-goldfish diets by home aquarists. Health issues in their fish were then very common; fatty liver disease in lionfish, pica in piranha (where they eat each other to try to get more thiamin) and HLLE in oscars. Fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase can be supplemented with thiamin. Conversely, aquarists can avoid feeding fresh seafoods known to be high in thiaminase.

The actual impact of thiaminase on a fish’s diet depends on three factors:
What proportion of thiaminase-containing food is fed to the fish
What the concentration of thiaminase is in the food item
How much vitamin B1 is already present in the food

The following is a partial list of seafoods that contain and don’t contain thiaminase:

Species high in thiaminase
Anchovy (Engraulis sp.)
Atlantic herring (Clupea harengus)
Capelin (Mallotus villosus)
Carp (Cyprinus carpio)
Clams (family Veneridae)
Goldfish (Carassius auratus)
Lobster (Homarus americanus)
Menhaden (Brevoortia spp.)
Minnows (Cyprinids)
Mussels (Mytilus spp.)
Rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax)
Sardine (Harengula spp.)
Scallops (Pecten spp.)
Shrimp and prawns (various species)
Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)
White bass (Morone chrysops)
Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)


Species lower in thiaminase
Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)
Atlantic hake (Merluccius bilinearis)
Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)
Atlantic mackerel (Scomber scombrus)
Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar)
Brown trout (Salmo trutta)
Catfish (Ictalurus and related spp)
Cisco (Coregonus spp.)
Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)
Flounder / sole (Pleuronectes and related spp.)
Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)
Hake (Urophycis spp)
Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)
Mullet (Mugilidae spp)
Poecilids (Guppies, platies, mollies)
Pollock/Pollack (Pollachius spp.)
Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)
Tilapia (Oreochromis spp)
Worms (Lumbricus spp)


Silversides confusion – many aquarists feed frozen “silversides” to their aquarium animals. True silversides (Atherinids) are low in thiaminase. Many fish food manufacturers use other fish species and call them “silversides”. Some of those fish are actually smelts or sardines and are high in thiaminase. Of five products on the market that were looked at, only one contained actual silversides (Rowlett, 2017). True silversides will have two dorsal fins (the first one may lie close to the body). The smelts have an adipose fin and a single dorsal fin (like trout do).

My zebra eel eats primarily crusteans.
I don’t feed him life food. Would frozen shrimp be bad for him also?

And do you have any information on thiamine in mysis?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

My zebra eel eats primarily crusteans.
I don’t feed him life food. Would frozen shrimp be bad for him also?

And do you have any information on thiamine in mysis?

We supplement the shrimp we feed our zebra eels with a Thiamin/Vitamin E paste, but that is not readily available to the public. You could try feeding some salmon filets, not all the time, just once in a while, to offset the thiaminase in the shrimp.

I've heard reports that mysids are also high in thiaminase, but I cannot find an actual reference for that. I don't know if people are just lumping them in with "shrimp", or if that is truly an issue. It does seem to be an issue with large superba krill.

 

[Waters]

I feed my lion a mix of a couple of different foods but I primarily use skin on sockeye salmon cut into small chunks. Here is a link to the original thread which I found extremely helpful.

Lion King's dead food recommendations

What fish are you feeding? Many "silversides" that are being fed are actually types of smelt and are high in thiaminase, so unless you know for sure, it's best to avoid that "species name" altogether. Here is my list of seafoods that are lower in thiaminase. Guppies and poecilids would be...

www.reef2reef.com