Question about antibiotic dip

[Robert Ranciato]

Is it ok to use amoxicillan instead cipro when making a long term dip for my torch corals. I'm afraid to use in my main system. I'm going to dip them for few hours to see if they improve.

 

[Goaway]

There's a big difference between the risks and results from those two scenarios. As I explained before it's more like a bacterial evolving to not be susceptible to getting shot in the head. And further, we don't give patients bleach to help them with an infection. Our number of effective antibiotics that humans can safely take to help with a specific infection are likely far more limited than the number of chemicals we can use to wipe down surfaces and disinfect them. A bacteria becoming resistant to bleach is likely many orders of magnitude less likely and less impactful than antibiotic resistance (which we are already seeing today).

Let me make this short.

Give up your house hold disinfectants, I'll give up my cipro.

 

[LRT]

I can only reiterate what I posted in the thread yesterday that got taken down. Antibiotics such as these are on restricted supply by law under a written prescription only, as each and every use has potential to generate antimicrobial resistance. This applies not just in the place of use but throughout the entire waste water processing system. The less we use the better from the AMR perspective. In veterinary medicine it is now expected and required that each use is individually justified by us on grounds of risk to life or of serious ill-health. Evidence of a specific infection is gathered where possible and appropriate, often involving microscopy with lab bacteriology (including sensitivity testing). I cannot see that routine prophylactic treatment of fish or corals could ever comply with pharmaceutical law in any properly regulated prescribing environment. It would appear from the outside that in some countries, possibly including the US, such regulations are not as effectively applied as they might be. For me it is a concern when an online forum allows posts that might encourage a use that is unlikely to be legal.

Fish Cipro can be bought online at many retailers. Some states have it banned but not all states. I'm actually glad we have a forum that allows us to have respectable informed discussions whether we disagree or not.

 

[LRT]

And if we keep dumping this stuff in our tanks with no idea how they work, in 20 years they'll just get a coffin.

I actually see it a different way. I'd be disappointed if a reefer ran across this thread and decided to allow a coral to die instead of treating the coral to live.
Especially if we end up with data in 20 years that shows cipro could and should have been used to save it.

 

[WillpoleReefers]

Fish Cipro can be bought online at many retailers. Some states have it banned but not all states. I'm actually glad we have a forum that allows us to have respectable informed discussions whether we disagree or not.

Wow, you are saying that a fluoroquinolone antibiotic is available OTC in the US? Am amazed, this group of antibiotics is used only on prescription as a second line when strictly required here in Europe. The problem with such discussion is when comments are anecdotal rather than science based. It is those that spark my concern

Steve

 

[Goaway]

Fish Cipro can be bought online at many retailers. Some states have it banned but not all states. I'm actually glad we have a forum that allows us to have respectable informed discussions whether we disagree or not.

In the winter of 1999 in spokane, Washington. A very aggressive strain of staphylococcus was brewing in the hospitals. After January of 2000, over 17 people would die, mostly new borns and elderly fell victim.
Many would lose limb after limb and Tide would produce a commercial on how their detergent could kill the bacteria!

The only explication they gave was over sanitization. It was a horror to witness.

I guess i can blame it on coral dipping.

 

[LRT]

Wow, you are saying that a fluoroquinolone antibiotic is available OTC in the US? Am amazed, this group of antibiotics is used only on prescription as a second line were strictly required here in Europe. The problem with such discussion is when comments are anecdotal rather than science based. It is those that spark my concern

Steve

I definetely appreciate your concern. Fish Cipro is sold over the counter and readily available for purchase where I live. I've read all the threads against its use and its totally understandable I just happen to disagree as I've seen it work as a dip and do miracles, overnight in some cases and have watched too many success threads over the years to know better as ive seen its effectiveness first hand. I truly would love to see more testing with corals as I believe it is very effective to treat certain issues for corals.

 

[WillpoleReefers]

I definetely appreciate your concern. Fish Cipro is sold over the counter and readily available for purchase where I live. I've read all the threads against its use and its totally understandable I just happen to disagree as I've seen it work as a dip and do miracles, overnight in some cases and have watched too many success threads over the years to know better as ive seen its effectiveness first hand. I truly would love to see more testing with corals as I believe it is very effective to treat certain issues for corals.

Though looked at through the eyes of European medicine at least I think it would be hard indeed to justify the use of a fluoroquinolone to treat a coral. Effectiveness doesn’t even come into the argument!

Steve

 

[LRT]

Though looked at through the eyes of European medicine at least I think it would be hard indeed to justify the use of a fluoroquinolone to treat a coral. Effectiveness doesn’t even come into the argument!

Steve

Right on we have a good friend that lives in Cali that still wears a mask, gloves, bacterial soap and wipes down furniture when she comes to visit no lie and that's been over in this state for a couple solid years now! To each there own, wherever everyone is I guess.

I've swam on the reef and with whale sharks. The scientist we swam with explained to me how in the last 5 years alone they have lost over 40% of that particular reef and was super concerned if it would even exist in another 5 years. If cipro can help save that reef I'm all for it.

 

[Latte]

As much as I love coral we're talking about an organism that has no ability to suffer or any comprehension that it or anything else exists - I personally find ethical arguments for needing to save our corals to stack up very poorly against the possible harm to humans.

First, I think the evidence in support of antibiotics as a dip are extremely low. Especially considering we need to compare not it's effectiveness compared to nothing but compared to the next best treatment, and there are a handful of other things I've heard similar claims for over the years.

Second, even if we actually had evidence that supports antibiotics being used in our tanks helping against bacterial infections, which I'm sure they do to some extent - that what antibiotics do, from this thread alone it seems clear that people really have:

- no idea how to use antibiotics
- no idea when to use antibiotics
- no idea which antibiotics to use
- no idea how much antibiotics to use

Further, there seems to be no discussion on how to mitigate and reduce the risks of antibiotic resistance in terms of disposing of water etc.


So to summarise, currently we have low or minimal evidence in support of using antibiotics as a dip. Plenty of alternative treatments to use when corals aren't doing well with similar or better supporting evidence. But still we continue to use something with no idea how or when to use it to save an organism incapable of suffering, when we have no idea if it is even suffering from bacteria to begin with and contributing to the eroding effectiveness of a type of medication that has saved the lives of likely more people than any other. The costs to benefits just aren't there to justify this

 

[Goaway]

Probiotics shield corals from deadly tissue loss disease

A bacterial treatment for coral stopped or slowed 68 per cent of infections with stony coral tissue loss disease in the lab, and it prevented the spread of the disease as well

www.newscientist.com

A common antibiotic might save some sick corals

The antibiotic amoxicillin stopped tissue death in corals for at least 11 months after treatment.

www.snexplores.org

But hey,

- no idea how to use antibiotics
- no idea when to use antibiotics
- no idea which antibiotics to use
- no idea how much antibiotics to use

1. Dissolve in a small amount of water and add to treatment tank/container
2. Rotting flesh is a very big indicator of an aggressive bacteria, one can treat or let it turn to skeleton.
3. There are only 2 actual anti biotics that we can get to treat these flesh eating bacteria. Cipro which is quicker and more effective and amoxicillin which needs more time (days)
4. 125 mg per 5 for coral and anemones.

We were also not talking about disposing. As sun light breaks cirpo down very quickly. Also makes the human who uses it, fry like bacon under the sun.

If you want to blame someone for abusing antibiotics. Why are you smacking the hobbyist and not the mass agriculture who is on a daily basis feeding this stuff to mass amounts of cattle, pigs, chicken, fish, sheep, goat?

But somehow, the people really trying to save their sick coral or anemones from turning to mush are being smacked like a bad dog.

Bravo my friend, bravo!

 

[Troylee]

Not sure why it’s such a problem all the sudden?!? We’ve been fighting Cyanobacteria with chemiclean for how many years?!? It’s still effective to this day and we all know what’s in it “the big bad E word” and it hasn’t built up immunity yet! Sigh…..

 

[TheSheff]

Is it ok to use amoxicillan instead cipro when making a long term dip for my torch corals. I'm afraid to use in my main system. I'm going to dip them for few hours to see if they improve.

I would advise against just amoxi, amoxi + cipro is fine. Don't listen to the people that just tell you not to use it. Also if brown jelly gets bad enough dont be worried about having to dose in the display tank, I've done it before with no harmful effects. A thread on here actually showed that it can increase the biodiversity of bacteria.

 

[TheSheff]

I

I totally agree, we only do this because we care about our investments. I don't see any issue with anyone using Cipro. With that being said, I am trying out RTN/STN X by fauna marin right now to see if it helps with BJD. It's much easier to get this than cipro.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wow, you are saying that a fluoroquinolone antibiotic is available OTC in the US? Am amazed, this group of antibiotics is used only on prescription as a second line when strictly required here in Europe. The problem with such discussion is when comments are anecdotal rather than science based. It is those that spark my concern

Steve

Fishbiotics Ciprofloxacin Tablets - 500 mg

Fishbiotic Ciprofloxacin is a bacterial antibiotic that works quickly and effectively to fight gram positive and gram negative bacterial issues commonly found in aquarium fish.Ideal for treating: Infected eyes, Fin & Tail Rot, Skin Ulcerations, Pop-Eye, Columnaris Diease and Gill Disease.For...

www.thatpetplace.com

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Since I'm still getting notifications about this thread even though I'm not following, I came back to catch up.

For the record, my advice on Cipro was against using it as a DIP (which was the question the OP asked). Full tank treatment is the best way to go, both for exposure time and no need to worry about disposal. I agree that it appears to help with BJD, anemone infections, etc.

 

[Gundy]

Isn't under exposure pretty much exactly what causes a large proportion of antibiotic resistant strains?...

As a dentist I will respond. Actually, repeated and continuous exposure to pathogens with antibiotics over the years has created resistant strains with certain pathogens in humans. In my opinion, I see nothing wrong treating aquarium species such as corals, mushrooms and fish with specific antibiotics in a responsible manor. As hobbyists, we have a responsibility to care for these creatures in our aquariums. Too many people kill countless fish and corals because they are uninformed and uneducated on how to care for these animals. Many do not take this responsibility seriously. In my opinion, treating aquarium species with antibiotics has no chance of creating resistance since most do not reproduce in captivity in large masses. Thus, they can’t pass on any resistance to a particular antibiotic.

Also, if people are having success with dipping corals in a particular antibiotic and having success, I don’t see the harm in doing so. What harm can it do if it’s nearly dead? Keep in mind that we in this forum are not experts in how antibiotics are absorbed in these animals. We don’t know what the half life is and just how the healing process works when exposed to an antibiotic. What we do know is that some people are apparently having success. Perhaps other reefers will jump into the conversation and share their stories.

Who knows, maybe 5 years from now, dipping corals with a specific antibiotic will be the norm.

 

[LRT]

As a dentist I will respond. Actually, repeated and continuous exposure to pathogens with antibiotics over the years has created resistant strains with certain pathogens in humans. In my opinion, I see nothing wrong treating aquarium species such as corals, mushrooms and fish with specific antibiotics in a responsible manor. As hobbyists, we have a responsibility to care for these creatures in our aquariums. Too many people kill countless fish and corals because they are uninformed and uneducated on how to care for these animals. Many do not take this responsibility seriously. In my opinion, treating aquarium species with antibiotics has no chance of creating resistance since most do not reproduce in captivity in large masses. Thus, they can’t pass on any resistance to a particular antibiotic.

Also, if people are having success with dipping corals in a particular antibiotic and having success, I don’t see the harm in doing so. What harm can it do if it’s nearly dead? Keep in mind that we in this forum are not experts in how antibiotics are absorbed in these animals. We don’t know what the half life is and just how the healing process works when exposed to an antibiotic. What we do know is that some people are apparently having success. Perhaps other reefers will jump into the conversation and share their stories.

Who knows, maybe 5 years from now, dipping corals with a specific antibiotic will be the norm.

Great post its like Troylee said here in why all of the sudden all the pushback on using antibiotics as Dips? All one has to do is a quick cipro dip search up top to find hundreds of successful dip threads for all kinds of critters with all kinds of ailments over the years. Up until this and a few other threads lately, cipro dips have been a perfectly acceptable norm for treating corals for a very long time. Ever since I've been posting on reef forums honestly.

Not sure why it’s such a problem all the sudden?!? We’ve been fighting Cyanobacteria with chemiclean for how many years?!? It’s still effective to this day and we all know what’s in it “the big bad E word” and it hasn’t built up immunity yet! Sigh…..

 

[Goaway]

Troylee said here in why all of the sudden

Joe R. After his event with a certain medicine took place. Things went into chaos caused by people who were pushing a certain something. And I shall shut up. Because it may lead to a shut down on this thread.

Since I'm still getting notifications about this thread even though I'm not following, I came back to catch up.

For the record, my advice on Cipro was against using it as a DIP (which was the question the OP asked). Full tank treatment is the best way to go, both for exposure time and no need to worry about disposal. I agree that it appears to help with BJD, anemone infections, etc.

I understand your point of view. I just think you hate the word dip. It really makes no srnse calling a treatment a dip that takes 6 to 12 hours of exposure.

While i do not use amoxicillin. I can't even begin to give advice on the matter.

I do not know if cipro degrades under reef lights. Sun light destroys it, which is why these reef scientists are using amoxicillin. I am un aware of the night time dangers in the reef, so they can't use cipro.

 

[LRT]

Joe R. After his event with a certain medicine took place. Things went into chaos caused by people who were pushing a certain something. And I shall shut up. Because it may lead to a shut down on this thread.


I understand your point of view. I just think you hate the word dip. It really makes no srnse calling a treatment a dip that takes 6 to 12 hours of exposure.

While i do not use amoxicillin. I can't even begin to give advice on the matter.

I do not know if cipro degrades under reef lights. Sun light destroys it, which is why these reef scientists are using amoxicillin. I am un aware of the night time dangers in the reef, so they can't use cipro.

Incredible I was honestly shocked to see all the pushback threads after being away for a minute. I'd hate to see a reefer run across this thread and lose a coral especially if a technique/usage with a medicine has been known to repeatedly save a coral for its specific ailments.
Totally bizarre there are tons of proven succesful threads to be found on r2r using antibiotics as Dips. For years now

 

[Goaway]

Incredible I was honestly shocked to see all the pushback threads after being away for a minute. I'd hate to see a reefer run across this thread and lose a coral especially if a technique/usage with a medicine has been known to repeatedly save a coral for its specific ailments.
Totally bizarre there are tons of proven succesful threads to be found on r2r using antibiotics as Dips. For years now

The last thing I will say, I don't believe in using antibiotics as a preventive.

However, as the dentist up there was talking.. reminded me. After surgeries, the patient is given antibiotics to take for a week to prevent infections.

I'm not sure if that practice has ended or not.