A discussion on immunity

[Paul B]

Also meaning no offence I think I agree with you. The people in South East Asia were infected and recovered. They have had to be because the place is infested in mosquitoes and there is no chance of you not getting infected.
The fish we keep were all infected with parasites as the sea is infested with them just like the mosquitoes in Viet Nam.
I realize many people died from malaria just like many fish in our tanks die from ich. But the fish that die, like most of the people who died were not in very good conditions. Many people in Asia live in filthy conditions subsisting on things like bugs and rats. People in Africa live in worse conditions so if malaria doesn't kill them, something else probably will as they are in horrible health. Those people are the majority of the people that died. Just like fish not in perfect condition will die from ich. The people living in the cities there were fine even though mosquitoes were also there. This is why I want my fish exposed to parasites.
My theory of not quarantining depends on the fish being in spawning condition. That is the best condition a fish can be in and the condition it is in in the sea. A fish fed nothing but pellets and flakes will get and die from ich as it has a compromised immune system. I don't know what the statistics are for fish dying of ich that were in perfect conditions but some of my fish are 25 years old and none were even quarantined. Virtually all my fish die from either jumping out or old age. I realize that is not a scientific study, but there are no scientific studies on this. All we have is that stupid chart of the lifecycle of a parasite. If my fish never die from ich there must be something going on as I am not that smart. I am a bald headed electrician with very old fish that never get sick. That is my scientific study. :)

 

[Humblefish]

So I wanted to throw out a concept, by no means am I a biologist or medical professional. Humans and other mammals can develop communities to bacteria and viruses and if re-infected, the anti-bodies will defeat the invaders and prevent the ailment. But I have been bitten by mosquitoes and ticks thousands of times and will continue to forever. I don't think it is possible for any animal to develop a biological resistance to more complex organisms in a parasitic relationship. What do others think about this concept?

Just like with humans, a fish's natural immune system is better equipped to handle bacteria & viruses than it is parasites & worms. In the wild fish rarely encounter high enough concentrations of protozoan parasites to actually kill them. No where to escape such in the confines of an aquarium.

However, I also think very few fish live to a ripe old age out in the ocean. Either a predator eats them, or they get injured/diseased and then a predator eats them. ;) I've noticed in my tank if a fish gets even slightly injured its like blood in the water. Even my "non aggressive fish" act like they want to tear him apart. War of the ocean. :mad:

And who says fish get the proper nutrition they need to maintain a healthy immune system in nature? I'm sure some do, but others are probably suffering from the rapid destruction of their environment. Less available resources & food sources to go around.

 

[mcarroll]

They also must be susceptible.

This can be from genetics, but there's a long list of things, not limited to:

• malnourished
• treated with antibiotics
• exposed to toxins
• socially stressed
• physically stressed/injured

Very interesting parallels.

(Edit: Took too long editing that....duplicate info now!)

 

[mcarroll]

And who says fish get the proper nutrition they need to maintain a healthy immune system in nature? I'm sure some do, but others are probably suffering from the rapid destruction of their environment. Less available resources & food sources to go around.

True.

I think this can be the story of any critter.

Our collective health has probably been in continual decline since we started leaving our hunter/gatherer-ness behind.

Which I think we most likely did reluctantly due to the above issues you mentioned.

As soon as you permanently settle, so do the pests. Bye bye dilution. Hello plague.

Hm.

How do fish in ponds deal with immunity and buildup of pathogens? Is there no such thing as a stable pond?

 

[Humblefish]

How do fish in ponds deal with immunity and buildup of pathogens? Is there no such thing as a stable pond?

FW diseases are no where near as lethal as their SW counterparts. Just raising the temp to 86 is enough to eradicate Ichthyophthirius multifiliis. Most FW lakes, rivers and ponds achieve that every summer. ;)

 

[Paul B]

True.

I think this can be the story of any critter.

Our collective health has probably been in continual decline since we started leaving our hunter/gatherer-ness behind.

Which I think we most likely did reluctantly due to the above issues you mentioned.

As soon as you permanently settle, so do the pests. Bye bye dilution. Hello plague.

Hm.

How do fish in ponds deal with immunity and buildup of pathogens? Is there no such thing as a stable pond?

Freshwater fish have thicker slime than saltwater fish just for that reason. I didn't make that up either.

If you SCUBA dive you will notice that all the fish in the sea look much better than almost all fish in a tank. In the sea, they get what they need and they eat what they want, not what we have on hand that is convenient. I cringe when someone is happy because they "taught" their mandarin how to eat frozen foods. That means they are taking a fish that was designed to eat live food 1,000 times a day and try to get it to live on a couple of pieces of frozen mysis a day. I am sure none of those mandarins living on frozen foods live very long or spawn unless they are also getting a lot of pods.

 

[mcarroll]

Immunocompetence

Susceptible individual

Resistance – Wikipedia doesn't seem to have a page on resistance, tho the link above depends on the meaning of resistance for its explanation of the susceptible individual. Go figure.

It is good for us to distinguish the three...

2¢

 

[eatbreakfast]

Freshwater fish have thicker slime than saltwater fish just for that reason. I didn't make that up either.

If you SCUBA dive you will notice that all the fish in the sea look much better than almost all fish in a tank. In the sea, they get what they need and they eat what they want, not what we have on hand that is convenient. I cringe when someone is happy because they "taught" their mandarin how to eat frozen foods. That means they are taking a fish that was designed to eat live food 1,000 times a day and try to get it to live on a couple of pieces of frozen mysis a day. I am sure none of those mandarins living on frozen foods live very long or spawn unless they are also getting a lot of pods.

Actually, ORA was commercially breeding mandarins from a prepared diet, so.....

 

[mcarroll]

What prepared diet? Flakes? Or something like Paul "prepares"? :)

In seriousness...

ORA would have good reason to at least finish them on pellets since that's what 99% of everyone feeds.

I am curious if you/anyone knows what ORA feeds?

I doubt they were raised from eggs on anything resembling pellets....I bet at most they were "finished" this way.

 

[Paul B]

I am sure they are feeding them many times a day and not like a typical hobbiest who doesn't have the time to feed them every 10 seconds as they were designed to eat. ORA has the means and budget to do that.
Do you know of any mandarins in a home tank eating only frozen food or pellets that are spawning? I am curious about that because I naturally feed mine all day and they constantly spawn. But I could be wrong.

 

[Paul B]

Quote:
Malaria
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
Malaria

A Plasmodium from the saliva of a female mosquito moving across a mosquito cell
Classification and external resources
Specialty Infectious disease
ICD-10 B50-B54
ICD-9-CM 084
OMIM 248310
DiseasesDB 7728
MedlinePlus 000621
eMedicine med/1385 emerg/305 ped/1357
Patient UK Malaria
MeSH C03.752.250.552
Orphanet 673
[edit on Wikidata]
Malaria is a mosquito-borne infectious disease affecting humans and other animals caused by parasitic protozoans (a group of single-celled microorganisms) belonging to the Plasmodium type.[1] Malaria causes symptoms that typically include fever, fatigue, vomiting, and headaches. In severe cases it can cause yellow skin, seizures, coma, or death.[2] Symptoms usually begin ten to fifteen days after being bitten. If not properly treated, people may have recurrences of the disease months later.[1] In those who have recently survived an infection, reinfection usually causes milder symptoms. This partial resistance disappears over months to years if the person has no continuing exposure to malaria.[2]

This is about humans and malaria which is a parasite similar, but not the same as ich, most of us are not fish so the immunity to a parasite may be different.

 

[omykiss001]

They also must be susceptible.

This can be from genetics, but there's a long list of things, not limited to:

• malnourished
• treated with antibiotics
• exposed to toxins
• socially stressed
• physically stressed/injured

Very interesting parallels.
(Edit: Took too long editing that....duplicate info now!)

Yes I agree this is all important. Let's not forget one thing that does matter which we sort of bypass in most of this conversation as it seems more focused on Crypto. While talking about Cryptocaryon I agree many fish can fight this off if the number of parasites are manageable as it really is not that virulent of a parasite. It does not produce very high number of infectious offspring each cycle and some of the data seems to suggest of these only a few are manage to find a host it's kind of wimpy as diseases go, so it's not that virulent of a pathogen.

Now when we talk about velvet or brook, and possibly some virus and or bacterial infections that are very virulent they produce large numbers of infectious offspring and are very good at finding and infecting the host, and in some viral and bacterial infection they replicate on or in the host so rapidly often producing toxins as they do so that speed the weakening of the host so host can't mount a immune response fast enough and they succum quickly. This is what I worry about.

I will never argue that health of the host is important it determines how much time the host will get to mount a response and how much energy reserves it will have to keep the fight up long enough. However, there are just some diseases that have such a high kill rate that hoping for an individual that can survive is not very probable. These type of diseases are what worry me. I manage ich in my tank using a properly sized UV unit and I keep my fish in top physical condition (I feed like Paul does never argue this is a bad thing to do). I still will QT every fish and invert I can as it's the virulent diseases that move like wildfire through confined populations that worry me, it's always the stuff you don't know about.

 

[Humblefish]

Combining proper QT with proper nutrition.

@omykiss001 you are one smart man :)

 

[Lionfish Lair]

If you SCUBA dive you will notice that all the fish in the sea look much better than almost all fish in a tank. In the sea, they get what they need and they eat what they want, not what we have on hand that is convenient. I cringe when someone is happy because they "taught" their mandarin how to eat frozen foods. That means they are taking a fish that was designed to eat live food 1,000 times a day and try to get it to live on a couple of pieces of frozen mysis a day. I am sure none of those mandarins living on frozen foods live very long or spawn unless they are also getting a lot of pods.

My mandarin was 8 year old and had access to basically zero pods. IMO, what they need is a complete diet and it doesn't make a difference what the vessel is. Complete is complete. Problem is, mandarins often don't take frozen well enough to meet all their needs.

 

[mcarroll]

The value of probiotics (and the the extent of that value) to this conversation was touched on earlier.

Going back to post [HASHTAG]#207[/HASHTAG] it's useful to distinguish what kind of "immunity" we are referring to.

In aquariums, we really ought to be very interested in resistance to disease.

Nutrition and disease resistance in fish

The potential for dietary enhancement of disease resistance in fish culture certainly exists.

(only an abstract...sorry...complain to them)

He goes on with some caveats, but in reality he's not hedging much. They've been using probiotic feed in shrimp culture for a long time, for this and many other reasons.

The use of probiotics in shrimp aquaculture
(full article available)

 

[mcarroll]

Actually, ORA was commercially breeding mandarins from a prepared diet, so.....

Understandably ORA isn't entirely forthcoming about their feeding program, but from what I can discern on their website they aren't claiming quite that you did:

All of ORA’s captive bred mandarins will accept a variety of prepared frozen and dry foods upon acclimation to their new tank. They may be offered Nutramar Ova, finely chopped Hikari Frozen Blood Worms, fish roe, frozen or live baby brine shrimp, frozen daphnia, and New Life SPECTRUM Small Fish Formula pellets. Some have also shown interest in Cyclopeeze. However in a reef tank, they often will default to the naturally occurring live copepods found among live rock.

I'm willing to bet they all of that stuff all the time so the fish are acclimated to it, which lets them say in their FAQ:

The fish are raised on prepared foods, much like home aquarists provide.

Reading further, I find out they added a huge copepod supply to their feeding program.....worth pointing out that they did not strip it down to just pellets. ;)

And I love ORA, so don't take this as knocking them.....but nowhere do they claim anything about longevity or anything remotely related to our discussion here on immunity.

I'm curious what their slime is like vs wild counterparts.

We did quarantine captives separate from wilds where I worked, but we didn't have any lab to verify or culture anything.
Just did it because it kept more fish alive vs mixing them together.

2¢

 

[eatbreakfast]

Understandably ORA isn't entirely forthcoming about their feeding program, but from what I can discern on their website they aren't claiming quite that you did:


I'm willing to bet they all of that stuff all the time so the fish are acclimated to it, which lets them say in their FAQ:


Reading further, I find out they added a huge copepod supply to their feeding program.....worth pointing out that they did not strip it down to just pellets. ;)

And I love ORA, so don't take this as knocking them.....but nowhere do they claim anything about longevity or anything remotely related to our discussion here on immunity.

I'm curious what their slime is like vs wild counterparts.

We did quarantine captives separate from wilds where I worked, but we didn't have any lab to verify or culture anything.
Just did it because it kept more fish alive vs mixing them together.

2¢

They have since stopped breedtng mandarins(a prime example of hobbyists supporting the cheapest mandarins, ora's averaged 3x's the cost of wild), but when they were Piscine mysis was the staple of broodstock.

This was in reference to Paul b asking for examples of fish that are breeding (not clowns or damsels)on a predominantly frozen diet, and fish that had been quarantined. ORA fish fit both of those catagories.

I just fail to understand the camps tha taut no qt, but a stellar diet. I feel that probiotics, fresh ingredients, high variety, frequent feedings, and clean water as the norm, but utilized with qt gets you the benefits of both camps.

I personally don't keep many prs of fish, but the ones I do spawn almost every night once the daylights go out and it is just actinics. I qt, but feed mostly a homemade concoction of fresh, whole seafood. I have spawning fish from the prs, and dynamic displays from the wrasses that I have one of each species. These would qualify as their natural behavior, as they vy within the hierarchy for dominence should an appropriate female wrasse present herself. However, I do also supplement their diet with pellets 2x a day while I am at work.

Qting actually cuts down on pathogens they deal with. They may not have disease resistance, but they are not encountering pathogens either. I also try to maintain as stress free of an environment as possible, but because of the nature of their displays and hierarchy, stress is not completely eliminated. Doing the best on both of these protocols is better than the "people get sick fish because they qt", because quite frankly, the vast majority of people that currently qt, do so because they learned the hardway. While it is certainly possible to have a tank full of disease resistant fish, it is highly unlikely. And far more fish lives would be saved if every new fish keeper started with a qt, and once they have years of experience move away from it if they wish.

Posts that encourage people skipping qt are exactly what new aquarists want to hear. Nobody likes waiting dor a fish to pass through qt, so when seeing 'evidence' to support not qting, they run with it as if it were gospel. When in reality, it is just another of the myriad of shortcuts they will take, which will ultimately lead to the death of a majority of the fish under their care. In fact, it is most assuredly the continued shortcuts that these aquarists take, not the qt, that results in the pathogens.

 

[Paul B]

I asked for information on mandarins spawning in a "home" tank eating nothing but pellets or frozen food, not ORA. Quarantining is no problem as long as it is not too long and not to sterile.

 

[Humblefish]

I asked for information on mandarins spawning in a "home" tank eating nothing but pellets or frozen food, not ORA. Quarantining is no problem as long as it is not too long and not to sterile.

I agree a fish's exposure time to medications should be limited. However, I am also discovering that certain types of bacteria will biodegrade medications so sterile is a necessary evil. ;)

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

I agree a fish's exposure time to medications should be limited. However, I am also discovering that certain types of bacteria will biodegrade medications so sterile is a necessary evil. ;)

But is that qt or hospital. Would that type of med best be done in hospital.