Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

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Tom Bishop

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I posted this in the other thread and @taricha thought it was small cell amphidinium but my pics and video were not the best trying to again to see if its just small cell or maybe small and large cell.

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I also have this squiggly guy...



Still not sure on best path forward, I have a bare bottom tank so no sand, I have raised the temp but so far that does not look like it is helping much, also running a UV in the DT and not much change.

Thanks :)
 

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attiland

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I posted this in the other thread and @taricha thought it was small cell amphidinium but my pics and video were not the best trying to again to see if its just small cell or maybe small and large cell.

......

Still not sure on best path forward, I have a bare bottom tank so no sand, I have raised the temp but so far that does not look like it is helping much, also running a UV in the DT and not much change.

Thanks :)

For small cell uv done the job for me. Most of them gone in 2 month. I have fine sand so I can’t up the flow too much but you should be ok to do so with bare b.
 

attiland

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For sure keep it up. When the silica source is gone the diatoms will be too giving room for the dinos to re-surge. Keep it up until they have been totally crushed. I let up on my last treatment and they came back in the new tank I just transferred to. Except now my problem is in a 70 gallon tank and not a 12. Wishing I would have crushed them before moving over.
Would you siphon or just accept brown sand
 
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taricha

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I posted this in the other thread and @taricha thought it was small cell amphidinium but my pics and video were not the best trying to again to see if its just small cell or maybe small and large cell.
good pics/vids. small cell is what I see.

Would you siphon or just accept brown sand
siphon the most annoyingly brown, accept the rest - snails and pods eat diatoms quite well.
 

Tom Bishop

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good pics/vids. small cell is what I see.


siphon the most annoyingly brown, accept the rest - snails and pods eat diatoms quite well.

Thanks taricha, one question I started running some GAC but what I am not sure is how often should I swap it out since I want to filter the toxins out from the small cell?

I have read through all the pages but its not clear for small cell what is my best path forward? Anyone that has defeated small cells have any advice?

Thanks :)
 
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taricha

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Differences are what you already stated. Expect toxins, run GAC (change a couple of times a week - use smaller batches), run UV.
 

Tom Bishop

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Differences are what you already stated. Expect toxins, run GAC (change a couple of times a week - use smaller batches), run UV.

Thanks, interesting it appears that I have cyano already showing up on some area's of my rocks, I assume I should let it be and allow it to continue to take over more real estate. I assume I'd rather have cyano vs Dino's so I should just keep letting it do it's thing, I am dosing phosphate daily to keep it elevated, having a hard time keeping it above .02 via hanna checker.
 

MrsBugmaster

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I got the Silica Low range hanna checker and not sure if I am reading it right. the reading is 2.0 so is that my silica level or do I need to take that number x 0.467? I remember reading somewhere that I need to take my reading x 0.467. Which one is correct? If it is the reading on the meter (2.0) then why do I still have dinos? I have not dosed any silca, this in the number from the start.
 
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taricha

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Thanks, interesting it appears that I have cyano already showing up on some area's of my rocks, I assume I should let it be and allow it to continue to take over more real estate. I assume I'd rather have cyano vs Dino's so I should just keep letting it do it's thing, I am dosing phosphate daily to keep it elevated, having a hard time keeping it above .02 via hanna checker.
You'll eventually find that turning the tank away from P limitation, it settles on other limiting resources and the P will stabilize. You won't have to dose forever. Treat cyano as a convenient opportunity to export nuisance boimass. Suck out whatever looks like a good healthy population. (It'll return - less intense - bu that'll be another opportunity for easy export.)


I got the Silica Low range hanna checker and not sure if I am reading it right. the reading is 2.0 so is that my silica level or do I need to take that number x 0.467? I remember reading somewhere that I need to take my reading x 0.467. Which one is correct? If it is the reading on the meter (2.0) then why do I still have dinos? I have not dosed any silca, this in the number from the start.
The hanna LR Si meter is maxing out at 2.00 ppm SiO2 (your test solution should be quite blue).
the conversion is if you want to know how much of the SiO2 is Si.
[hanna SiO2 reading] x 0.467 = Si (ppm).
The conversion doesn't really matter as you are out of the range of the meter anyway. Dilute the final blue end product with distilled water and see how dilute you have to get it to be in the meter range. (5mL in 10? 2mL in 10?) What do you think is the Si source? Bad water? silica sand substrate? Silica containing media like siporax?
Normally I'd say just up your N & P and let the Si get consumed by diatoms etc, but looking at your pics here... it looks like you have a bunch of diatom and algae material already.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/d...ed-of-battling-altogether.293318/post-8198297
So you have a lot of brown - some is amphidinium dinos, but most is diatoms. I'd guess your herbivore crew is not scaled up to the amount of diatom material you have growing. So reducing Si to reasonable levels by growing more may not be the best move right now.

1. Dilute the test to estimate what your actual SiO2 value is.
2. Find out what your Si source is, and cut it out. Si will decrease over time.
3. make sure you have herbivores that'll graze the diatoms you have.
4. export the highest concentrations of brown junk (suction it out).



Is this Amphibinum (the one moving around)? Small or Large cell?
Large cell based on the scale of the cyano.
 
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thedon986

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I am currently fighting what looks like large cell amph and am dosing P and Si. Every morning I dose .02 worth of P and by the afternoon my Hanna Phosphorus is 0. This is wild seeing it deplete so quickly. Anyways, is there a consensus on adding fish and other livestock while fighting? Okay to do on limited basis?
 

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I am currently fighting what looks like large cell amph and am dosing P and Si. Every morning I dose .02 worth of P and by the afternoon my Hanna Phosphorus is 0. This is wild seeing it deplete so quickly. Anyways, is there a consensus on adding fish and other livestock while fighting? Okay to do on limited basis?
I have stabilised PO4 before started Si. It might be working your way too but will be harder to estimate the doses.

Don’t be shy about dosing aim a crazy high levels with your calculations first. Crazy high was 4-5ppm in my case of Po4 at first. After about a week I could stop dosing. With nitrate I had to push levels even further at first some people would start water immediately changes. This was 40-80ppm of nitrate.
You may see this unusual but above dose was used up in 2 days.

After about 2 weeks I could stop dosing altogether. I have tested twice a day and all I was care if they are detectable.
3 weeks onward levels set to 100/1 ratio of Nitrate/phosphate So 40ppm nitrate paired up with 0.4 phosphate. Kept it this way for 2-3 weeks simply because sponge excel was delayed in delivery.

Few corals I have loved the high levels (no SPS)

I Can’t measure Si so I went with simple maths route. Calculated dose of Si for 1ppm for my tank. All in and 2 days later another 1 ppm. waited 2 days and diatoms bloomed reduced dose to 0.2ppm twice a day.

Now 2 weeks later decided to stop dosing as I can’t find any more Dinos. I am super excited

Now just wait 2 week before declare win.
 
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taricha

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Anyways, is there a consensus on adding fish and other livestock while fighting? Okay to do on limited basis?
New tank?
I really wouldn't think about dinos in a new system. Just call it the uglies, suck out the bad parts, and let things mature.
 

thedon986

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New tank?
I really wouldn't think about dinos in a new system. Just call it the uglies, suck out the bad parts, and let things mature.
New but 20lbs of the 60lbs of rock came from a nano which I had them in and ended up siphoning out the sand. I think in the new transfer N+P were so low they popped back up again with limited diversity. Confirmed under microscope watching the little turds spinning in circles. I think they are large cell but not 100% on that. Tank has been running 1 month post transfer and am currently in the pod explosion/algae on rocks stage. Dino sand coverage seems to be receding.

Think it would be okay to continue stocking? Have about 4-5 fish left on my list and last additions were 2 cardinals added 2 weeks ago right before I realized the dinos were back.
 

thedon986

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I have stabilised PO4 before started Si. It might be working your way too but will be harder to estimate the doses.

Don’t be shy about dosing aim a crazy high levels with your calculations first. Crazy high was 4-5ppm in my case of Po4 at first. After about a week I could stop dosing. With nitrate I had to push levels even further at first some people would start water immediately changes. This was 40-80ppm of nitrate.
You may see this unusual but above dose was used up in 2 days.

After about 2 weeks I could stop dosing altogether. I have tested twice a day and all I was care if they are detectable.
3 weeks onward levels set to 100/1 ratio of Nitrate/phosphate So 40ppm nitrate paired up with 0.4 phosphate. Kept it this way for 2-3 weeks simply because sponge excel was delayed in delivery.

Few corals I have loved the high levels (no SPS)

I Can’t measure Si so I went with simple maths route. Calculated dose of Si for 1ppm for my tank. All in and 2 days later another 1 ppm. waited 2 days and diatoms bloomed reduced dose to 0.2ppm twice a day.

Now 2 weeks later decided to stop dosing as I can’t find any more Dinos. I am super excited

Now just wait 2 week before declare win.
Yeah it seems like I really need to up the P additions was just being cautious because the label says don’t exceed .04ppm per day. I guess that doesn’t take into account dinos voracious appetite for P. Nitrate seems to be holding steady 3-5ppm with much less dosing and heavy feeding.
 
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attiland

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Yeah it seems like I really need to up the P additions was just being cautious because the label says don’t exceed .04ppm per day. I guess that doesn’t take into account dinos voracious appetite for P. Nitrate seems to be holding steady 3-5ppm with much less dosing and heavy feeding.
Dino tread talks about higher levels of both phosphate and nitrite. I think the nitrate should aim for 10-20ppm while fighting dinos and I would go for 1ppm phosphate. Once the Dino competition kicks in the levels will set to a more healthy ratio.
In the beginning 20ppm nitrate gone in 6 hours for me but it could be Dino specific.
I had both small and large cell Amphidinium
And don’t forget it will go really bad before gets better as you not only feeding the competition but the Dinos too.
 

Jedi Knghit

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My dinos were ID'ed as Amphidinium in the main thread, but you couldn't tell small or large based on the previous pictures. are these any better to ID the size?

@taricha @ScottB
 

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reefer505

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I have been battling with what was identified as Amphibinum. My nitrates and phosphate have always been low but then once I stopped carbon dosing they sky rocketed. It test at 68 on aqua spin and triton said 101! My phosphate jumped to .68. also have crystophytes which really doesn't make any sense. I sent my water for an icp test and silicone came back at 0.06 and rodi tested at 0.0. I have no algae except film on the glass. All my large acro colonies are still growing slight stn but tithing crazy. Tank is 6 years old I just really don't get it. I ordered silicate to start dosi.g but will it have any effect on my nitrates? Should I start carbon dosing again for the dangerously high nitrate?
 

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reefer505

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I have a confirmed case of amphidinium in my 100g high end acro tank. I’m out of other options and my plan is to dose .2ml of sodium silicate for a few weeks to get it up to 2ppm to drive a diatom bloom. I see some recent posts of people losing acros when increasing silicates, has everyone has this experience or has anyone gone down this path and kept their acros reasonably happy?
Any update of the acros?
 

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Thank you for this very detailed post :)

I'm in the middle of a very similar regime by elegant corals (Cruz Arias).

It's going very well and after a week I have no Dino's on my sand at all.
I tried the same thing a year ago, but within a couple of weeks of ending the treatment they started coming back. So this time I'm going to do it twice (as you suggested).

The main difference I see is Cruz recommends placing an air stone near the return pump to flood the tank with fresh air. The aerobic bacteria (waste away) can deplete the tank of oxygen quite quickly, if they die they become dino food.

FB_IMG_1605474591349.jpg
It took me 3 weeks in a row of this treatment regimen to rid my tanks of dino. I also added a few pounds of established live rock covered in gha to help outcompete the dinos and shake up the micro biome.
 
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