Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods

[taricha]

Well, I got my Hanna Silica LR in and to my surprise my source water is 0.34ppm silica (took 2 readings 0.37 and 0.31). Tank reading 0.20-0.21. Which would explain the abundance of sponges in my sump.

That being said what are good alternatives (within $ reason) for Si test kits? Talking to Hanna, they don't advise using their kit on saltwater and can't guarantee the accuracy of the result. What is everyone using?

If you tested your source (fresh) water, then you can be sure it's within hanna stated uncertainty.
Hanna doesn't recommend for saltwater probably because it has more than their stated 5% uncertainty or whatever. It still is very consistent and far more accurate than other hobby kits.
(I'll poke around and see if I have a calibration curve somewhere, it comes out to be like a 10% under-measurement in tank water I think)
If you want to upgrade, you can use the kit from hach that Randy recommends and wrote up in his article on Si.

 

[taricha]

(I'll poke around and see if I have a calibration curve somewhere, it comes out to be like a 10% under-measurement in tank water I think)

So @Rick Mathew did the calibration curve. I don't think he posted it anywhere, but he found hanna under-measured Si relative to the known stock concentration in saltwater by 12% (over 10 data points)

Pretty dang good for my purposes.

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

So @Rick Mathew did the calibration curve. I don't think he posted it anywhere, but he found hanna under-measured Si relative to the known stock concentration in saltwater by 12% (over 10 data points)

Pretty dang good for my purposes.

Good enough for me.

Might have to add another step on Rodi specific to silica. I did an ICP test about 6 months ago and source water was 4.56ug/l silica

 

[Rick Mathew]

So @Rick Mathew did the calibration curve. I don't think he posted it anywhere, but he found hanna under-measured Si relative to the known stock concentration in saltwater by 12% (over 10 data points)

Pretty dang good for my purposes.

Here it is...

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

Got my Amscope to replace my toy microscope... Boy, I kinda wish I didn't. Looks like the dang Mongolian Hoard invasion.

It's been close to a month of elevated nutrients and these buggers aren't moving out. Started dosing silicates last weekend, fingers crossed.

Nuclear option: removing the sandbed. Melanarus not going to like it.

 

[thedon986]

Got my Amscope to replace my toy microscope... Boy, I kinda wish I didn't. Looks like the dang Mongolian Hoard invasion.

It's been close to a month of elevated nutrients and these buggers aren't moving out. Started dosing silicates last weekend, fingers crossed.

Nuclear option: removing the sandbed. Melanarus not going to like it.

Keep up the fight. I have noticed considerable recession this week with these methods: dosing Dr. Tim’s Waste Away at half max dose, dosing sodium silicate 2x a day about 5ml of concentrated stuff, dosing N+P, reduced light schedule by 3 hrs and heavy on blues. I think Waste Away has had the biggest impact of everything.

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

Keep up the fight. I have noticed considerable recession this week with these methods: dosing Dr. Tim’s Waste Away at half max dose, dosing sodium silicate 2x a day about 5ml of concentrated stuff, dosing N+P, reduced light schedule by 3 hrs and heavy on blues. I think Waste Away has had the biggest impact of everything.

Nothing else to do but keep on trucking. But it definitely starting to feel like beating your head against the wall.

Really have my fingers crossed for Si dosing. I'm doing recommended Sponge Excel dosage, but I think I'll have to ramp it up as I'm not seeing much diatom action (though there seems to be some under the scope there). Thankful that these buggers don't seem to be as toxic as the ostreopsis was. I'm going to have to do some research on waste away. I hate to do the "everything but the kitchen sink" approach, but with LC it may have to be what's needed.

 

[thedon986]

Nothing else to do but keep on trucking. But it definitely starting to feel like beating your head against the wall.

Really have my fingers crossed for Si dosing. I'm doing recommended Sponge Excel dosage, but I think I'll have to ramp it up as I'm not seeing much diatom action (though there seems to be some under the scope there). Thankful that these buggers don't seem to be as toxic as the ostreopsis was. I'm going to have to do some research on waste away. I hate to do the "everything but the kitchen sink" approach, but with LC it may have to be what's needed.

With SpongeExcel I was dosing 1 drop per gallon split in half for a 2x daily dosing. With this concentrated stuff I am probably 1.5x or 2x that right now. Not really sure, but have not seen any negatives just a big explosion in sponge growth.

 

[Steve Erekson]

Hey guys can I join your club?

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

So I'm coming up on a week of silicate dosing and starting to see a bunch of buildup on glass.

Did a scrape this morning and this is what I have:



1000x

600x

Looks like diatoms? There's LC visible, not a lot, but, at 1000x among what looks to be diatoms, there are these tiny "Dino" shaped little buggers zooming around....but they are tiny.

Are these small cell? Am I now honored to have both LC and SC represented in my tank?


But... Sandbed... looks... cleaner... maybe? Or it could be wishful thinking.

 

[Jason_1982]

Ok...so here's an update:

After my previous posts of disgust and frustration I felt better and regrouped. I had beaten Amphidinium once long ago in my old system ( the posts are early in this thread) by dosing Silicates and frequent pod (amphipod/Isopod) boosting. I figured as we were discussing I would continue this but stop all the other siphoning, stirring, etc. I still blew the rocks periodically to keep things off the corals.

So here goes....I spent some buck and purchased from @aquaculturenurseryfarms:

1. 10,000 Amphipods
2. 50 Feeder shrimp
3. Chaeto
4. Reef Soup

....a few days later I added another 5000 amphipods. I did this late at night in the dark- I scooped out some sand in a particularly bad area of dino and mixed in the amphipods and let things sit for a while. I then put the mix of pods and sand gently back in the tank. I started a small refugium in the sump using the old top off container that I drilled. I put some Garf grunge in that along with chaeto, amphipods, some feeder shrimp, and copepods.

A few days later my subscription of Algae barn 5280 pods came along with some phytoplankton. I've been getting this for a year now, and although it likely does not help eliminate Dino's, it does maintain the population for my wrasses. In any event, I also added to the order 4 bottles of the ecopods, and a bottle of the purple sulfur bacteria- PN Probio. I dosed a large amount of the bacteria empirically.

I added these new copepods to the refugium and display. Lastly, I re-stocked my clean up crew from reef cleaners, a mix of hermits, snails, limpets, etc. I purposely added some of the shipping water to the tank.

All the while I have been dosing silicates (sponge excel). The level would not rise much at first but finally bumped up to the ratio of 1:1 with my Nitrate Nitrogen. The diatom bloom was scary!!

At night the tank is teaming with life, pods running and scurrying everywhere- the feeder shrimp that did not become a wrasse meal are out and about as well.

Lastly I have been dosing coral snow in the evenings when the dino's are at their worst. This coincides with one of the bumps in flow that happen though out the day. I have my Neptuen Wav Pumps to go 100% for 5 minutes every three hours and get detritus suspended....using the coral snow along with this, I am having to change my filter socks every couple days.

I did leave my temps at around 82 ( 81.7-82.3) and continued my UV sterilizer due to the Ostreopsis that was originally the problem.

What I stopped was the daily sand stir and siphoning through the 1 micron filter, I stopped dosing waste away, MB7, MB Clean, and refresh. I stopped reef roids and any other supplements other than Nitrate (if needed and its not been). No water changes, and minimal scraping of the front glass only.

I have been feeding my fish twice a day- the morning is a mix of mysid, roe, seaweed, big stuff, etc., once a week I give my tang a 1 inch squat of Nori. In the evenings I feed some decap'd brine and arctipods for my anthias.

Nutrients are running on the high side- Nitrate is in the 16-24 range. Phosphate which had been 0.1 has creeped up to 0.3 and I am using all my willpower and restraint to not try and bring it down.

So the sand starts out clean in the morning and by late afternoon looks like vomit! The amount of diatom brown everywhere is scary! A few times last week I sampled and looked under the scope and saw sand pebbles covered in diatoms and those dang amphidinium having a party right along with them. It was so discouraging to see this every single evening.

Then I noticed something curious over the last two days. Despite my Silica levels running at about 2.6 the brown daily bloom did not look as bad. Normally it covered ever spot of sand but all of a sudden I am seeing areas that look white. I decided to be brave and look under the scope- I sampled the worst area I could find that was dark chocolate brown.

All I see are zillions and zillions of diatoms. They are covering every grain of sand....AND THE SAND MOVES!!! All sorts of critters, pods, nematodes, strange crab/tick looking creatures....just an explosion of diverse life but guess what....no matter how much I searched I only saw 1...yes ONE Amphidinium!!!!! I am talking about a small quarter size petri-dish with a layer of sand and water and I only found 1 amphipod.....hard to believe the transformation. Focusing through superficial to deep only shows diatoms. Focusing on the water column basically showed a sea of diatoms!

I am CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC......these ******** always find a way to become prominent so I don't trust that I am winning but I am pleased with what I saw for the first time in a long time.

I'll continue along this course and report back.

How is your battle? Your story is similar to mine. My Large C Amp are slightly on the run.

 

[thedon986]

Are these small cell? Am I now honored to have both LC and SC represented in my tank?

I would bet that the little zoomers are small cell. I have mostly large cell but under the scope I do see a zoomer here and there. On a sand bed sample I only see one or two.

 

[MrsBugmaster]

So I have been battling dinos for a while now. I think they are amphidinuim

Please advise me on what to do. I already replaced my sand with new live sand but they came back​

My NO3 is 5
PO4 is 0.076
Silica is .04 (using Hanna Silica LR tester)
What should my numbers be in order to beat these?
Looked under microscope again today. Lots of diatom on the glass and mag float but sand if full of Dino’s.

Yes his picture is from my mag float and glass

This picture is from my sand.

 

[thedon986]

So I have been battling dinos for a while now. I think they are amphidinuim

Please advise me on what to do. I already replaced my sand with new live sand but they came back​

My NO3 is 5
PO4 is 0.076
Silica is .04 (using Hanna Silica LR tester)
What should my numbers be in order to beat these?
Looked under microscope again today. Lots of diatom on the glass and mag float but sand if full of Dino’s.

Yes his picture is from my mag float and glass

This picture is from my sand.

Looks like you’re in my situation. Dosing silicate, nitrates over 7, phosphate over .15 and Dino is thriving. It’s been like this for a month and I’m becoming pretty annoyed with it. I think I’m doing more harm to my tank than good by continually tinkering with this. A hammer recently lost a head and my struggling duncan disintegrated. I tried raising temps over a week and the only thing I got was dead LPS and no change in Dino. Honestly think I’m going to just go back to maintenance as if the Dino isn’t there. Resuming water changes and just focusing on adding diversity and letting the tank mature.

I would say you could try the Dr. Tim’s Dino recipe if you haven’t already and some people have success with the Elegant Corals method using hydrogen peroxide. Something I also saw that’s new is Red-X by fauna Marin. Seems to be much less harsh than Dino-X but not sure if it will work for Amph Dino and reviews are hard to find.

 

[MrsBugmaster]

Looks like you’re in my situation. Dosing silicate, nitrates over 7, phosphate over .15 and Dino is thriving. It’s been like this for a month and I’m becoming pretty annoyed with it. I think I’m doing more harm to my tank than good by continually tinkering with this. A hammer recently lost a head and my struggling duncan disintegrated. I tried raising temps over a week and the only thing I got was dead LPS and no change in Dino. Honestly think I’m going to just go back to maintenance as if the Dino isn’t there. Resuming water changes and just focusing on adding diversity and letting the tank mature.

I would say you could try the Dr. Tim’s Dino recipe if you haven’t already and some people have success with the Elegant Corals method using hydrogen peroxide. Something I also saw that’s new is Red-X by fauna Marin. Seems to be much less harsh than Dino-X but not sure if it will work for Amph Dino and reviews are hard to find.

Thanks for the reply. I have tried Dr Tims method. I'm going to turn off my white lights and just runs the blues, siphon out dinos every 3 days and raise my nutrient more. I also have an Oxydator (uses peroxide) that I will put back in the tank to see if that helps. I'm afraid by raising nutrients more that I will be taken over by algae again. That is what got me started with all these dinos was taken over by algae and reducing nutrients too much. Seems like a vicious cylcle. My tank is no longer balanced! It is frustrating!

 

[dwest]

Thanks for the reply. I have tried Dr Tims method. I'm going to turn off my white lights and just runs the blues, siphon out dinos every 3 days and raise my nutrient more. I also have an Oxydator (uses peroxide) that I will put back in the tank to see if that helps. I'm afraid by raising nutrients more that I will be taken over by algae again. That is what got me started with all these dinos was taken over by algae and reducing nutrients too much. Seems like a vicious cylcle. My tank is no longer balanced! It is frustrating!

Sorry you are dealing with these.

I had amphidinium a couple years ago. I fought them for quite a while and incurred quite a bit of loss along the way. I finally made huge progress after I removed my sand bed, while continuing in-tank UV.

I always thought I would put my sand bed back in. But 2 years later I still have a bare bottom tank. Good luck to you.

 

[Steve Erekson]

So in my tank which had a much bigger cyano problem than dino, but still had some LC Amphinidiums in there I just completed a 2 day blackout during a chemiclean treatment (to target the cyano). During this time I also have been dosing phos to try and maintain just 0.04ppm since my tank keeps dropping to 0.00 or 0.01 all the time. It has been a daily dosing to maintain this.

Now 2 days removed from treatment completion I took a sample of the sandbed under the microscope and while there are some living cyano strands and LC amphinidium dino cells, it's very very minor. Going to continue to watch while maintaining the phos dosing (or 0.04ppm) and report back. No silicate treatment used yet.

 

[Reeferdeluxe]

I'm hoping I finally beat mine back with h202. Hopefully on the tail end of this.

 

[AbjectMaelstroM]

So after about a month (just finished my first bottle of sponge excell) of dosing Si to 1.5-2ppm, not really seeing any improvement.

Still getting minimal diatoms on the sandbed, still primarily LC. Off the glass, I'm getting more diatoms, some LC and what now looks like either small cell or maybe something else... Small, round and zooms around with a good amount of speed.

I'm still running in DT 55w UV at 350gph, mostly to prevent/keep other strains of dinos out.

This week I started adding MB7, will see if it makes a difference. I also did my first WC (10%) in close to 2 months, siphoning some sand while I was at it...man, dinos came back darker (heavier) the following day. I'm assuming I dislodged trapped goodies while siphoning.

Inching ever closer to removing a good portion of my sandbed, need to leave some for the melanarus.

 

[thedon986]

So after about a month (just finished my first bottle of sponge excell) of dosing Si to 1.5-2ppm, not really seeing any improvement.

Still getting minimal diatoms on the sandbed, still primarily LC. Off the glass, I'm getting more diatoms, some LC and what now looks like either small cell or maybe something else... Small, round and zooms around with a good amount of speed.

I'm still running in DT 55w UV at 350gph, mostly to prevent/keep other strains of dinos out.

This week I started adding MB7, will see if it makes a difference. I also did my first WC (10%) in close to 2 months, siphoning some sand while I was at it...man, dinos came back darker (heavier) the following day. I'm assuming I dislodged trapped goodies while siphoning.

Inching ever closer to removing a good portion of my sandbed, need to leave some for the melanarus.

I am the same point. 1.5 months of elevated nutrients and heavy silica dosing hasn’t really accomplished anything except throw things more out of balance. Last week dinos were stronger than ever under the scope, partying side by side with diatoms. Maybe my nutrients were too high and the diatoms weren’t able to outcompete for more limited nutrients?

I’m going back to a normal maintenance routine and will just be siphoning portions of the sand bed weekly and going to let the system mature and do it’s thing. Not removing the sand bed and will just keep dinos from taking over with regular maintenance. I now have Acoel flatworms taking over with all the nutrients I have been adding so at this point I’m more concerned about those than the dinos. This is definitely the most frustrating set up I have had in 11 years of reefing. I had better success as a total newbie with a BioCube and no ATO. Never starting with dry rock again.