Current Quarantine Protocol

[Jay Hemdal]

I'm using hanna checker. Copper Power at 2.5ppm. Unfortunately the trigger didnt make it. I doubt it was flukes as I completed 3 rounds of GC recently. I even did a FW dip on the corpse to be sure. I did a water change. They seem less stressed. Although the lionfish used to eat heavily and come to the front of the tank but now its become quite shy. Not sure if it got spooked during my water change. My 30 days of copper ends in about a week. If everyone is eating, would it be safe to put them in my DT? Or I should observe for another week or so? I was thinking it would be good to pull them out of full copper into the DT.

I'm sorry to hear about the trigger. I would NOT put them in the DT. My rule is to never move fish in with others if there has been a death in the group due to unknown reasons. What about going the water change route? Change multiple large water changes in the QT, get the water conditions good, and then see how the lionfish does? If it turns out to be a disease, at least your DT would be protected.....

Jay

 

[hairyashell]

I'm sorry to hear about the trigger. I would NOT put them in the DT. My rule is to never move fish in with others if there has been a death in the group due to unknown reasons. What about going the water change route? Change multiple large water changes in the QT, get the water conditions good, and then see how the lionfish does? If it turns out to be a disease, at least your DT would be protected.....

Jay

My DT has nothing inside actually. Once these fish are done with QT, I will be moving them over to the new sterile tank and seeding it with the QT filter sponges. I've done a couple of big water changes. Hopefully it will help with the lionfish. If there are no further deaths, when would it be safe to move them to the DT?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

My DT has nothing inside actually. Once these fish are done with QT, I will be moving them over to the new sterile tank and seeding it with the QT filter sponges. I've done a couple of big water changes. Hopefully it will help with the lionfish. If there are no further deaths, when would it be safe to move them to the DT?

That is safer, but it still doesn't get to the root issue of is this a disease or a water quality issue. If it is a disease, you may see an improvement when the fish are first moved over, but then they will backslide.

jay

 

[hairyashell]

That is safer, but it still doesn't get to the root issue of is this a disease or a water quality issue. If it is a disease, you may see an improvement when the fish are first moved over, but then they will backslide.

jay

How long should I observe to figure out if its a disease or not? Should I ramp down copper once 30 days are up next week?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

How long should I observe to figure out if its a disease or not? Should I ramp down copper once 30 days are up next week?

That is the issue; if it is a disease, not water quality, the fish may improve for maybe a day, then go downhill again. At that point you’ll know it is a disease. If they improve and then stay improved, you know then that it was the water m.
I don’t understand about the copper, I thought your option was to move them out of the copper now?
Jay

 

[hairyashell]

That is the issue; if it is a disease, not water quality, the fish may improve for maybe a day, then go downhill again. At that point you’ll know it is a disease. If they improve and then stay improved, you know then that it was the water m.
I don’t understand about the copper, I thought your option was to move them out of the copper now?
Jay

Oh I assumed I should maintain copper so that my 30 day doesn't reset. What would you advise? Keep them in the copper for a few more days (will be 30 days this Friday) or just remove copper and observe ?

By the way, the lionfish also didn't make it. I'm suspecting when I did a big water change last week, my pH dropped by 1 point. I forgot to test for pH at that point. Could this have been the fatal cause along with the fact that I ran 3 doses of GC with copper over the last 3 weeks ? All that stress could be fatal?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Oh I assumed I should maintain copper so that my 30 day doesn't reset. What would you advise? Keep them in the copper for a few more days (will be 30 days this Friday) or just remove copper and observe ?

By the way, the lionfish also didn't make it. I'm suspecting when I did a big water change last week, my pH dropped by 1 point. I forgot to test for pH at that point. Could this have been the fatal cause along with the fact that I ran 3 doses of GC with copper over the last 3 weeks ? All that stress could be fatal?

So - the issue is that there is something wrong in the tank, but we don't know what it is. Two fish have died, the trigger with rapid breathing. I don't think the lionfish died from a water change done last week. I'm left with two possibilities: toxins in the water or an uncontrolled disease. I'm starting to wonder more about some issue with copper power and GC. As I mentioned, I've never dosed those two medications at the same time. I have heard people doing that, but maybe your fish had a reaction? I'm still trying to figure out though, why that would have caused rapid breathing in the triggerfish.....sorry i cannot give you a definite answer here. If the DT is empty, maybe you should move the remaining fish over? What fish are left?

Jay

 

[hairyashell]

So - the issue is that there is something wrong in the tank, but we don't know what it is. Two fish have died, the trigger with rapid breathing. I don't think the lionfish died from a water change done last week. I'm left with two possibilities: toxins in the water or an uncontrolled disease. I'm starting to wonder more about some issue with copper power and GC. As I mentioned, I've never dosed those two medications at the same time. I have heard people doing that, but maybe your fish had a reaction? I'm still trying to figure out though, why that would have caused rapid breathing in the triggerfish.....sorry i cannot give you a definite answer here. If the DT is empty, maybe you should move the remaining fish over? What fish are left?

Jay

Just to clarify the sequence of events that happened to where I am now. I've had clown trigger, nigel trigger, regal angel, emperor angel, snowflake eel, dwarf lionfish and dogface puffer when I started copper power. The first to die was the emperor as it seemed like a bacterial infection. Same with the regal angel. During which I added Kanaplex but I was probably too late. After which I did a water change to remove kanaplex. I added GC as I saw my nigel trigger scratching on surfaces suspecting flukes. But it died a few days later during 2nd dose of GC. After the 3rd dose of GC, the clown trigger was also gone. Initially I thought maybe my nitrates might have been high or large water changes (sudden change in ph or temp) were causing a lot of stress. Perhaps combining GC and Copper was not such a good move. I will be mindful of this moving forward.

Currently the eel and puffer are left. Both are eating. I'm considering 2 options: Keep them in QT and observe until 30 days of copper are over. Drop the copper, keep them in QT and observe a few more days. Then move them to DT if all is well. Which would you say would be better at this point? FYI, I am planning to get a 2nd batch of livestock to start in QT once these move to DT.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Just to clarify the sequence of events that happened to where I am now. I've had clown trigger, nigel trigger, regal angel, emperor angel, snowflake eel, dwarf lionfish and dogface puffer when I started copper power. The first to die was the emperor as it seemed like a bacterial infection. Same with the regal angel. During which I added Kanaplex but I was probably too late. After which I did a water change to remove kanaplex. I added GC as I saw my nigel trigger scratching on surfaces suspecting flukes. But it died a few days later during 2nd dose of GC. After the 3rd dose of GC, the clown trigger was also gone. Initially I thought maybe my nitrates might have been high or large water changes (sudden change in ph or temp) were causing a lot of stress. Perhaps combining GC and Copper was not such a good move. I will be mindful of this moving forward.

Currently the eel and puffer are left. Both are eating. I'm considering 2 options: Keep them in QT and observe until 30 days of copper are over. Drop the copper, keep them in QT and observe a few more days. Then move them to DT if all is well. Which would you say would be better at this point? FYI, I am planning to get a 2nd batch of livestock to start in QT once these move to DT.

Here is a thought: eels are sensitive to copper (they often go off feed). Puffers are also reported to be sensitive to copper (but I don't see that myself with coppersafe). To me, them being alive and the other fish having died points AWAY from it being copper toxicity. I would therefore keep the copper up for a full 30 days.

Still, I have no way to help you with the idea that there was a water quality issue with copper combined with GC, maybe eels and puffers aren't as affected by that?

Jay

 

[hairyashell]

Here is a thought: eels are sensitive to copper (they often go off feed). Puffers are also reported to be sensitive to copper (but I don't see that myself with coppersafe). To me, them being alive and the other fish having died points AWAY from it being copper toxicity. I would therefore keep the copper up for a full 30 days.

Still, I have no way to help you with the idea that there was a water quality issue with copper combined with GC, maybe eels and puffers aren't as affected by that?

Jay

Yes. Perhaps they are not as affected by the cocktail. I guess I'll keep the copper going and keep an eye on them.

 

[Critteraholic]

Here's my 2 cents. When you "treat" any kind of animal (including us humans) it always causes a level of stress even if it doesn't show; because you're adding a foreign substance into their bodies. And every creature handles stress, good or bad, in their own way.

It's possible that there was a disease in the tank that hadn't been able to get a toe-hold because the fishes' immune system was able to keep it at bay. But then the chemicals added began to add stress to their immune systems allowing the disease to set up shop and cause death. The fish with the weakest immune system, of course, would go first.

That the other two haven't passed could be due to their immune systems and the possibility that the copper has finally killed the disease.

Chemically, combining the meds could have possibly affected/stressed liver and kidney function to the point of failure.

Since there is no way to know exactly what the problem is, I would finish the copper treatment and -slowly- take the copper out with small water changes over about 10 days to make sure they are healthy and strong enough to go into your DT. Remember, transferring to the DT is going to ramp up the stress levels all over again.

I wish you the best of luck with this. I'm sure losing that many fish in such a short time has not been easy.

 

[hairyashell]

Here is a thought: eels are sensitive to copper (they often go off feed). Puffers are also reported to be sensitive to copper (but I don't see that myself with coppersafe). To me, them being alive and the other fish having died points AWAY from it being copper toxicity. I would therefore keep the copper up for a full 30 days.

Still, I have no way to help you with the idea that there was a water quality issue with copper combined with GC, maybe eels and puffers aren't as affected by that?

Jay

Day 27 in copper now. I noticed a bit of a white patch on the backdorsal fin of the puffer. Is it a symptom of anything? No behavioral changes though. Both eel and puffer are eating.

 

[OscarHaglund]

I have a fairly small sponge filter that comes with the second hand tank I intend to use for quarantine. Since this sponge is fairly small, Is it possible to add additional sponges that you tie down inside of the QT to act as an additional biological filter in the same way that your live rock in the DT is not located inside the filter. I imagine that should.

For my EU friends out there, we dont seem to have (at least I cant find) copper power or the other copper sources mentioned in the OP, but I did see that my store was selling Brightwell Cuprion (ionic). Anyone with experinces using this product?

I also read about making the copper aolutuon yourself

DIY copper med

Here is a recipe for a DIY copper solution (updated 6-29-22): Into 1 liter of RODI water add... 4 grams Copper(II) sulfate pentahydrate (CuSO4.5H2O) 0.25 gram Citric acid - the acid acts as a stabilizer to the copper in solution. Never substitute the citric acid with ascorbic acid (Vitamin C)...

humble.fish

Which would you guys recommend?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Day 27 in copper now. I noticed a bit of a white patch on the backdorsal fin of the puffer. Is it a symptom of anything? No behavioral changes though. Both eel and puffer are eating.

It looks like there is a light reflection right where the white spot it, makes it difficult to see. It could be simply mucus produced due to some irritation in the water (as we've been suspecting0 or it could be a mild bacterial growth.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have a fairly small sponge filter that comes with the second hand tank I intend to use for quarantine. Since this sponge is fairly small, Is it possible to add additional sponges that you tie down inside of the QT to act as an additional biological filter in the same way that your live rock in the DT is not located inside the filter. I imagine that should.

For my EU friends out there, we dont seem to have (at least I cant find) copper power or the other copper sources mentioned in the OP, but I did see that my store was selling Brightwell Cuprion (ionic). Anyone with experinces using this product?

I also read about making the copper aolutuon yourself

DIY copper med

Here is a recipe for a DIY copper solution (updated 6-29-22): Into 1 liter of RODI water add... 4 grams Copper(II) sulfate pentahydrate (CuSO4.5H2O) 0.25 gram Citric acid - the acid acts as a stabilizer to the copper in solution. Never substitute the citric acid with ascorbic acid (Vitamin C)...

humble.fish

Which would you guys recommend?

Yes, I've often used sponges from other tanks as passive biofilters in QT. You just need to ensure that the sponges have been in the other tank for a long time - months, not weeks.

Cuprion is tricky to use. I wouldn't try dosing it unless you have a Hanna LOW range copper tester. I used to use ionic copper meds that I made myself. I used a spectrophotometer to read the levels - you slowly raise the copper to 0.20 ppm and then test twice a day and add partial doses as needed to maintain a level of 0.18 to 0.20 ppm Toxicity can be seen in some fish at 0.22

Jay

 

[hairyashell]

It looks like there is a light reflection right where the white spot it, makes it difficult to see. It could be simply mucus produced due to some irritation in the water (as we've been suspecting0 or it could be a mild bacterial growth.

Jay

Hope this helps see clearer.

 

[OscarHaglund]

Yes, I've often used sponges from other tanks as passive biofilters in QT. You just need to ensure that the sponges have been in the other tank for a long time - months, not weeks.

Cuprion is tricky to use. I wouldn't try dosing it unless you have a Hanna LOW range copper tester. I used to use ionic copper meds that I made myself. I used a spectrophotometer to read the levels - you slowly raise the copper to 0.20 ppm and then test twice a day and add partial doses as needed to maintain a level of 0.18 to 0.20 ppm Toxicity can be seen in some fish at 0.22

Jay

The homemade copper according to the link is also ionic right? In that post you mention another therapeutic range of .15 .25 mg/L which i belive is pretty much the same as .15 - .25 ppm. Is 0.18-0.20 an updated number and what about the low/high range copper checker? I also read some other thread that the low range checker is unreliable or flat out not working for salt water?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The homemade copper according to the link is also ionic right? In that post you mention another therapeutic range of .15 .25 mg/L which i belive is pretty much the same as .15 - .25 ppm. Is 0.18-0.20 an updated number and what about the low/high range copper checker? I also read some other thread that the low range checker is unreliable or flat out not working for salt water?

Almost assuredly, any copper that is dosed around 0.20 ppm (or mg/l) is copper sulfate and citric acid. The range of 0.18 to 0.20 is right in the middle of 0.15 and 0.25, so if you can hold a tighter range, that is much better. I use a spectrophotomet4er to measure this, but I've been told the Hanna LR works o.k. - the Hanna HR will not work.

Jay

 

[hairyashell]

It looks like there is a light reflection right where the white spot it, makes it difficult to see. It could be simply mucus produced due to some irritation in the water (as we've been suspecting0 or it could be a mild bacterial growth.

Jay

Here's a video showing the cyst:
Is there anything I should do?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Here's a video showing the cyst:
Is there anything I should do?

From the brief glimpse, I can’t rule out Lymphocystis - a non-fatal viral infection that typically goes away in six weeks or so.
Jay