Disregard for reefing guidelines

[BTimms]

I've had some good LFS owners before, but I rarely remember getting enough time to actually talk with them about stuff. Why? They would be talking up another customer for a half hour or so, going through all the ins and outs of an aquarium trying to make the sale. I've already done my research for the most part before hitting the store, I see what I want, maybe have a question or two, then bag it up and I'm gone. I've actually walked out of stores when the owner is busy talking up some one on what I believe can be had in a book, but I do understand that some people learn differently and may need that person to person talk.

One of my good friends worked for a little while in the LFS trade, very intelligent and passionate about fish and fisheries. He would be to type to steer you in the right direction and not try and make the sale. The problem with that is, that sale he doesn't make or the deterrent of "SW is needs more care" sends the nemo/dory seekers to a big chain store where the sale gets made. He finally left the business, what he called "the death hobby".

My lfs owner is amazing.
He is very knowledgeable and focused on client education.
He will not let people come in and simply make snap purchases. If they attempt to do that, he will slow them down and inform them. If even seen him lose sales due to it. But he makes the hobby better, healthier and more sustainable.
I should have clarified all this before posting. I just see a lot of people who get in and get out for emotionally shallow reasons.

 

[Little c big D]

Anyone want to talk about how someone made it all about cycling a tank lol.

As a new again to the hobby. So much has changed, even from just 4 years ago. I feel that to many took this personal and that it's more directed at people whom buy first and ask later. For this I agree. I also understand the desire to directly ask a question and feel that the answer was personalized to the situation. There's 2 sides to every story but I have seen the strangest "emergency" posts. Like the wrasse that buried itself this morning. The internet is full of answers Some time contradictory though.

 

[MnFish1]

Anyone else seeing a dramatic rise of ppl that are new to the hobby and disregarding reefing guidelines?

Surely one would never go buy a rare type of dog without reading in depth on how to care for it, train it.... maybe ppl do just buy and figure it out later. What do i know?

I feel like a person in a Motorcycle Forum called Bike2Bike...with questions like,

"Is it okay to use first gear up until 65mph? And why does black smoke come out of my exhaust when I do this?"

"Can I ride backwards on my Harley and steer with my arms behind me? I wanna see where I've been"

I'm not understanding the total lack of discipline (common sense if you will) when entering a hobby, when you obviously know you have to do a lot of research for it.... yet a lot of ppl just seem to be winging-it

Yours is kind of a general post - so its hard to disagree - but - I've been keeping tanks for decades - and still discuss/argue the same 'facts' that people have debated for the entire time. Look at the cycling threads, look at the quarantine threads, etc etc.

The problem seems to be (IMHO) - that people tend to agree with people that do what they do, and ignore/dismiss people that disagree (even though the evidence suggests the contrary). Most of the 'discipline' is debated - as you well know. I'm not sure why you're surprised.

 

[MnFish1]

IMO most people who fail dont have a plan and stick to it from day one.
Winging it is a sure way to failure.
By the way my 03 cbr 954 would do 70+ in first gear before I changed the front and rear sprokets, lol.
I also know plenty of people who buy superbikes and cant ride.
Oh I rode a dirt bike when I was a kid. I know a few who are not alive today due to inexperience.
Those kind of people are in every hobby known.

And in my opinion many people here are a little OCD - and planning (over-planning). Then get stuck when things aren't working out the way they want. When I read a post that says 'I've been doing my build now for 6 months I say 'why'? To me thats 'overplanning'. Its like there is some reward for doing something that should take a week in a year. I get it, I get it, its a hobby. And I don't care what people do - I'm just saying personally, I don't get it. Not criticizing anyone.

 

[MnFish1]

Here are my thoughts......after reading the responses i believe most of ya'll are missing the point.

This isnt about getting down on new reefers, or high horses, or the like. Its about new reefers not putting in the time and effort to understand what keeping a reef tank is all about. Im more than willing to help but i wont do the work you should have done in the first place.

Yes, we were all new and still are really and all have questions, thats okay, but do YOUR RESEARCH. Use the search, use google, read, problem solve, take notes, formulate thoughts, use reason and logic. Formulate a plan and after all that, if you still have a question, ask away. Our culture is a microwave society and im just as guilty at times

Also, it could be helpful if someone states that they have been putting in the time doing research but are still having trouble understanding. Sometimes things aren't clear no matter how much research we've done but im willing to bet more would be willing to take the time to help knowing the individual has already taken some time on their own.

I guess im not one to coddle people or be "nice" for the sake of being "nice". I dont believe its helpful. Keeping it real and telling the truth, though it may not feel good at times is actually helpful.

This is a discussion board. The point is for people to ask questions and have a discussion and get different viewpoints. The problem I have with the OP - and yours - is that in fact, there are numerous questions that people have multiple opinions on. I mean - should this just be a place where a sticky is put up - for topic xyz? It would be a pretty boring discussion board. Just keeping it real and 'telling my version of the truth'

 

[brandon429]

Little c big D​

​

Anyone want to talk about how someone made it all about cycling a tank lol.


that’s one mentioned aspect where noncompliance paid off, literally. Don’t sub over generalization for catchy humor. new reefers skip disease preps and kill thousands of wasted fish a few months after startup collectively because of the false training in old cycling science, ie the rules.

Source for claims: any given ten hour period of new posts added to the fish disease forum the last five years.

 

[MnFish1]

sure. I suppose I owe you that given the brevity of my response.

“Rules were created to be broken” - this is not true. There are many rules that we’ve agree to as a society that must be adhered to. Many of these come from the Torah - whether you disagree with it or not is irrelevant. In fact rules and guidelines is what most people seek and need to feel secure. We also have a general rule in this hobby to do our best not to kill the creatures we take care of. If someone can’t be bothered to do basic research before plunking down fish into a tank that will kill them - that makes them a fool. An irresponsible one that has no business attempting to take care of other life forms.

Secondly - re V2 rocket; there was careful experimentation. As repugnant as the ****’s were - they went about it in a methodical fashion. They didn’t simply throw some fuel into metal, slap on TNT and light it on fire. The same with Howard Hughes. I’m not an expert on his life - but I’m going to bet he did a lot of research and careful experimentation before trying new designs and taking some calculated risks.

And this is the point the OP is making. Far too many people jump in - slap some things together, kill the fish and corals they bought and then ask for aimless help without so much as reading a single sentence on the topic of how to keep a reef tank. There are huge amounts of info out there on the inter webs regarding this topic. 90% of their questions are already answered - and in many cases could have saved the lives of the creatures they chose to try to care for.

Yes - mistakes will happen. We’ll run into situations we don’t have an answer to and we didn’t plan for - and that is expected. I’m talking about willful neglect and ignorance/laziness/selfishness of which I see a lot of out on the internet relating to reef tanks.

And btw - I don’t see willful neglect when I look at your tank. I see a guy who has done his research and didn’t just wing it. Sure maybe you took some unnecessary risks - but you had an educated approach with your method. And therein lies the heart of this topic - I believe the Op is talking about people who can’t even be bothered to do a google search on how to setup a reef tank or what to do.

And a lot of people overanalyze, fret, test every 20 minutes chase parameters, have every automated gadget (because those are the 'rules'). They have a plan - and they have constant problems. My alkalinity went up from 8 to 8.3, my ICP test has high tin levels, etc etc. There are no 'rules'. Lots of things work. Anyone who says there are rules is misguided. Most of keeping any animal alive is common sense. IMHO

 

[MnFish1]

So, it may not really be my business, except that it is. There is currently a ban on fish collection in Hawaii. How many thousands of yellow tangs do you think have died in the tanks of people who couldn't be troubled to do some basic research before buying one? Chances are there wouldn't be a need to ban fish collection if this did not happen so much. Call me judgmental if you want, but I feel it is absolutely imperative to stress the importance of good pet care to new reefers. At the rate things are going, the reefing hobby may be banned entirely.

OK - you're judgmental. People eat tangs in Hawaii. They can be bought in fish markets. There is no shortage of tangs in Hawaii. If what you're saying is something you actually, honestly believe - the hobby should be banned. Because people do stupid things. They keep dogs chained in their yards, etc etc.

 

[X-37B]

And in my opinion many people here are a little OCD - and planning (over-planning). Then get stuck when things aren't working out the way they want. When I read a post that says 'I've been doing my build now for 6 months I say 'why'? To me thats 'overplanning'. Its like there is some reward for doing something that should take a week in a year. I get it, I get it, its a hobby. And I don't care what people do - I'm just saying personally, I don't get it. Not criticizing anyone.

They get stuck because they dont have a "basic" plan.
It is very common in the hobby, hence why they ask so many questions.

If I was a new reefer I would pick someone with a nice build thread and try to emulate what they are doing.

This hobby has so many experts that know little to nothing about being successfull in this hobby for longer than a year.

I will take any pm, and have, and I will take the time to explain what and why I do things from over 30 years experience.

We need more mentors in this hobby, imo.

 

[elysics]

And a lot of people overanalyze, fret, test every 20 minutes chase parameters, have every automated gadget (because those are the 'rules'). They have a plan - and they have constant problems. My alkalinity went up from 8 to 8.3, my ICP test has high tin levels, etc etc. There are no 'rules'. Lots of things work. Anyone who says there are rules is misguided. Most of keeping any animal alive is common sense. IMHO

Eh... "Common" sense is anything but common. Ask a zookeeper what's common sense about an elephant's diet and then ask a random guy off the street. People overestimate how common or normal their knowledge and belief is. Being in an echo chamber like this forum doesn't help, we're a collection of weirdos and normal people wandering in and asking stuff out of actual common sense immediately stand out. Same goes for most hobbies. The kind of sense you are talking about needs to be learned in some way or another

 

[ZoWhat]

......that people tend to agree with people that do what they do, and ignore/dismiss people that disagree (even though the evidence suggests the contrary).

My vote for Quote-of-the-Month

 

[MnFish1]

Dude, why don't you use that energy and experience to question and challenge a certain someone on this forum who gives out bad science advice to mostly brand new reefers and this particular person doesn't even own a tank nor does he keep fish. If you did that you'd have my full and unwavering support, not that you're looking for it.

Who are you talking about. Asking for a friend.

 

[BTimms]

If you have fish. You should have a lid or top of some kind.

 

[ingchr1]

...If I was a new reefer I would pick someone with a nice build thread and try to emulate what they are doing....

Paul B has a nice build thread, but it's not something a new reefer should try to emulate. Says so himself.

 

[MnFish1]

you know i saw the same article on the proposed canadian ban on inverts and anything not tank bred...i believe it was posted in the lounge section...not only cant i find it here any attempts to google it come up empty....

This is a reason for forums like this. Here are the guidelines. They were not for the entire country of canada - only for Winnipeg. I suppose the several people who posted that it was fake news could be criticized - but maybe there should be a sticky on how to 'google' something here as well. *Just kidding - not being snarky* here is the link

https://ehq-production-canada.s3.ca-central-1.amazonaws.com/6458f0d88f986f45321d674fa91f4fc605207bed/original/1629389549/0b76b90dc3adc95cb5421db689f3540c_WEB-PR-AS-RPO_Bylaw_Review-Presentation-20210716-v2.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIBJCUKKD4ZO4WUUA%2F20210911%2Fca-central-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20210911T183112Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=93ce975375ade94874cef0c01c1ce6eec20dc2b710bc1a489abcc2ec64c18c15

 

[BTimms]

This is a reason for forums like this. Here are the guidelines. They were not for the entire country of canada - only for Winnipeg. I suppose the several people who posted that it was fake news could be criticized - but maybe there should be a sticky on how to 'google' something here as well. *Just kidding - not being snarky* here is the link

https://ehq-production-canada.s3.ca-central-1.amazonaws.com/6458f0d88f986f45321d674fa91f4fc605207bed/original/1629389549/0b76b90dc3adc95cb5421db689f3540c_WEB-PR-AS-RPO_Bylaw_Review-Presentation-20210716-v2.pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=AKIAIBJCUKKD4ZO4WUUA%2F20210911%2Fca-central-1%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20210911T183112Z&X-Amz-Expires=300&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&X-Amz-Signature=93ce975375ade94874cef0c01c1ce6eec20dc2b710bc1a489abcc2ec64c18c15

Ya, people need to read the article to understand it, not just the heading. Seems to be a common issue these days.

It is one municipality. And their intentions were fairly positive in trying to protect exotic animals in general, from people whom are irresponsible.

 

[MnFish1]

Eh... "Common" sense is anything but common. Ask a zookeeper what's common sense about an elephant's diet and then ask a random guy off the street. People overestimate how common or normal their knowledge and belief is. Being in an echo chamber like this forum doesn't help, we're a collection of weirdos and normal people wandering in and asking stuff out of actual common sense immediately stand out. Same goes for most hobbies. The kind of sense you are talking about needs to be learned in some way or another

That was my point. IMHO - the best way to learn is to 'ask questions'.

 

[MnFish1]

Ya, people need to read the article to understand it, not just the heading. Seems to be a common issue these days.

It is one municipality. And their intentions were fairly positive in trying to protect exotic animals in general, from people whom are irresponsible.

This reminds me of an old saying 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'. IMHO the guidelines were so far over the top as to be insane.

 

[BTimms]

This reminds me of an old saying 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'. IMHO the guidelines were so far over the top as to be insane.

And that’s why it didn’t pass through gov.

I agree with you. I do think some reasonable protections should be required for keeping pets and exotic animals. No doubt about it.

 

[MnFish1]

And that’s why it didn’t pass through gov.

I agree with you. I do think some reasonable protections should be required for keeping pets and exotic animals. No doubt about it.

I don't think it has come up for a vote yet - that was a draft version. BUT - it does show how some people 'think' about aquaria. Google it- there are numerous groups fighting to ban all aquaria - including PETA