GFCI Outlet poll

Where are you on Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter outlets for your power supply?


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alton

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While completing my continuing education yesterday from Jade Learning I ran across this verbiage which led into a question on the new NEC 2020. Number 11 which covers wet and damp locations in the home. If you do not think the new code affects you make sure you never have an insurance claim due to your tank. Remember the NEC was established for insurance companies in the very beginning. If you have a new home with a built in tank or one in the basement, you will never get an inspection without GFCI protection. When I changed insurance companies last time they sent out an inspector to make sure everything was good.

Section 210.8(A) now includes eleven locations within a dwelling unit to which the electrician must give consideration when determining GFCI protection requirements. That eleventh location is Indoor Damp and Wet Locations and must be considered in addition to damp and wet locations previously covered by Section 210.8
With over 100 million homes in the U.S., there are often situations where GFCI protection should be administered and required, but the situation doesn’t meet any specific requirement as outlined in Section 210.8(A) of the NEC. One inspector submitted a comment to the Code Making Panel (CMP) stating he inspected a home with a dedicated dog washing area. Since the area wasn’t a sink or bathroom, nor was it located in an unfinished portion of the basement, the NEC didn’t give the inspector authority to require the needed GFCI protection for the receptacle in that area. This new requirement for protection in Indoor Damp and Wet Locations now gives the AHJ some latitude when making such a determination.
GFCI Requirements for Receptacles Rated to 250 Volts
Section 210.8(A) also requires in this new 2020 Code cycle that receptacles rated 125- to 250-volts be GFCI protected when located in areas outlined in 210.8 requiring such protection. This is new for the 2020 Code cycle as only 125 Volt receptacles required this protection in 2017 and earlier Code cycles. This new requirement applies to dwelling unit receptacles up to 250 Volts, when supplied by a single-phase branch circuit rated 150 volts or less to ground. This requirement may affect ranges and clothes dryers when they are located in some of the areas specified in 210.8(A). Many electric clothes dryer receptacles are installed in a laundry area, basement, or within six feet of a sink and will need this protection. 240 Volt clothes dryers in a garage and any 240 Volt electric ranges located in any of these same specified areas will fall under this new GFCI requirement.
GFCI Requirements for Basements
The next significant change is to the intent of Section 210.8(A)(5). This subsection was specific to unfinished basement portions not intended as habitable rooms. However, this has been replaced with a new directive requiring that all basement areas, whether finished or unfinished, be GFCI protected. The NEC Code Making Panel (CMP) indicated that a finished space within a basement does not negate the overall safety risk associated with branch circuits installed below grade level of the earth’s soil. AHJs should also keep in mind that in addition to these new GFCI requirements for receptacles in all areas of the basement, Article 210.12(A) still requires that the branch circuits in habitable areas of basements be AFCI protected.
GFCI Protection
It seems with every new Code cycle that the list of conditions and locations mandating GFCI protection is growing. This ever-expanding need for GFCI protection is due to real-world occurrences as well as studies documenting where potential hazards exist.
 

James210ReefLife

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Yes!
When my 45 all in one cracked it sprayed the entire tank of water on the wall which ran down over the outlet...
I don't want to imagine what would have happened if the gfi didn't pop......
 

siggy

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It seems with every new Code cycle that the list of conditions and locations mandating GFCI protection is growing. This ever-expanding need for GFCI protection is due to real-world occurrences as well as studies documenting where potential hazards exist.
If we had to adopt every change in every code update we would get nothing done cuz we spent all day in the book.
It's up to the state and local jurisdictions to adopt the new changes and what year code to enforce. Most places here still allow 1 ground rod and that changed over 10 years ago.
 

Aquajeep

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I had GFI plug and it popped twice for no reason. Second time almost crashed my tank. Found out they are cheap butt chinese crap even tho they charge a lot at store. Electrician told me best thing to do is a GFI breaker at the panel $$$ will do some day. Best advice just make sure no water can get to the outlet drip loops and a cover work best. If u have the money do a breaker at the panel.
 

alton

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If we had to adopt every change in every code update we would get nothing done cuz we spent all day in the book.
It's up to the state and local jurisdictions to adopt the new changes and what year code to enforce. Most places here still allow 1 ground rod and that changed over 10 years ago.
Siggy the city I work in (San Antonio) actually adds tougher rules than is written in the NEC. Couple examples are #12 Romex minimum in homes connected to a 20 amp breaker, and no Romex in commercial buildings.
 

siggy

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Siggy the city I work in (San Antonio) actually adds tougher rules than is written in the NEC. Couple examples are #12 Romex minimum in homes connected to a 20 amp breaker, and no Romex in commercial buildings.
Small conductor rule supersedes all others, in most cases. Steel studs and romex doesn't mix well, same here MC/AC is std
 

BeckyW

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Hi All, nice discussion. As an Electronics Tech I installed a GFCI with alarm on my tank, (Home Depot $30). You must remember it's NOT the voltage that kills you, it's the current, (100mA). So everything that we use in our tanks has the capability to put you 6ft under. So, I highly recommend installing a GFCI.
Hello Phil,
Just had my aquarium surge protector kicked off. Unsure why. You mentioned an alarm that sounds if that happens. Can you tell me more about that? Purchased at Home Depot? How does it work? All the sudden I’m concerned and am gathering information to protect my fish. After researching, I also think I will purchase a second surge protector to divide my plug ins. Your thoughts?
Becky
 

Phil D.

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Hello Phil,
Just had my aquarium surge protector kicked off. Unsure why. You mentioned an alarm that sounds if that happens. Can you tell me more about that? Purchased at Home Depot? How does it work? All the sudden I’m concerned and am gathering information to protect my fish. After researching, I also think I will purchase a second surge protector to divide my plug ins. Your thoughts?
Becky
Yes, got it at Home Depot. Spurious surges, (happens in the grid all the time), can trip GFCI. When mine trips it alarms with a high/low tone. That way you can reset.
 

Sebastiancrab

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That is why I use multiple GFCI's so a single trip can't wipe my tank.

I've helped advise many people on here who have lost fish and coral due to failed electrical equipment leaching copper and other contaminants into their tank that could easily have been prevented with a GFCI and ground probe.
Many more tanks than were lost to a properly designed and installed GFCI system.
I am trying to understand how a GFCI and ground probe will prevent leaching contaminants into your tank? Is this saying all equipment failures will trip the items thereby alerting you?
 

Brew12

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I am trying to understand how a GFCI and ground probe will prevent leaching contaminants into your tank? Is this saying all equipment failures will trip the items thereby alerting you?
A GFCI ground probe will reduce contaminants leaching into your tank in the event an energized conductor makes contact with your water. The most common failures along these lines are cracked heaters or motor housings, but can also be caused by corrosion, bad seals, or any number of other things.
The copper conductor will corrode in salt water. The rate of that corrosion happens much more quickly if the copper has current flowing through it. Electrical faults also tend to generate high localized heat which can break down plastics and cause those chemicals to leach into the water.
So, the benefit is two fold. First, the GFCI will trip as soon as a fault occurs instead of relying on you to feel the shock or stick your hand in the tank to trip a GFCI. The second benefit is that it removes the current and heat source which will slow down the rate potential toxins are released into the water.
 

nereefpat

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So, the benefit is two fold. First, the GFCI will trip as soon as a fault occurs instead of relying on you to feel the shock or stick your hand in the tank to trip a GFCI. The second benefit is that it removes the current and heat source which will slow down the rate potential toxins are released into the water.

Also, it alerts you that a piece of equipment has failed, so you can get it out of the tank.
 

MnFish1

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Hello Phil,
Just had my aquarium surge protector kicked off. Unsure why. You mentioned an alarm that sounds if that happens. Can you tell me more about that? Purchased at Home Depot? How does it work? All the sudden I’m concerned and am gathering information to protect my fish. After researching, I also think I will purchase a second surge protector to divide my plug ins. Your thoughts?
Becky

Some of them also switch off once too much current is being drawn. I recently ditched my apex classic when it failed - and plugged heater, pump, and radions (ita a large freshwater tank) - and when the lights were off - no - problem - I changed some water - which cooled the water at a point when the lights and the heater and pump were on - and every hour or so- I would walk by - and say 'who flipped the switch' since then I plugged the heater into the wall - and have not had a problem
 

rwreef

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I know this is an old thread..but important.

If a GFCI trips there is a problem. Fix the problem and the GFCI won't trip. 100% required in my opinion. Electricity can kill you.
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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I am trying to understand how a GFCI and ground probe will prevent leaching contaminants into your tank? Is this saying all equipment failures will trip the items thereby alerting you?

Just to expand on what Brew correctly said.

If a copper wire (or a penny) is just sitting in seawater, it will slowly corrode.

If a live copper wire is exposed to the water and current is flowing through it into the water, release of copper goes up exponentially.

The reason is as follows:

Many of the electrons flowing through the copper wire and away from the tank arose because a copper atom at the water interface broke up into an electron that flowed away from the interface and up the wire, and a copper ion that dissolved into the water:

Cu (metal) --> Cu++ (ion in solution) + 2e- (electron flows up the wire)

Other competing processes will make equally bad things, such as chloride ion becoming chlorine:

2Cl- (ions in solution) ---> Cl2 (chlorine) + 2e-(electrons flowing up the wire)

So having electricity flowing through a wire in the water is a very undesirable chemical process, even if no one gets electrocuted.
 

Sebastiancrab

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Just to expand on what Brew correctly said.

If a copper wire (or a penny) is just sitting in seawater, it will slowly corrode.

If a live copper wire is exposed to the water and current is flowing through it into the water, release of copper goes up exponentially.

The reason is as follows:

Many of the electrons flowing through the copper wire and away from the tank arose because a copper atom at the water interface broke up into an electron that flowed away from the interface and up the wire, and a copper ion that dissolved into the water:

Cu (metal) --> Cu++ (ion in solution) + 2e- (electron flows up the wire)

Other competing processes will make equally bad things, such as chloride ion becoming chlorine:

2Cl- (ions in solution) ---> Cl2 (chlorine) + 2e-(electrons flowing up the wire)

So having electricity flowing through a wire in the water is a very undesirable chemical process, even if no one gets electrocuted.
Thank you! I just picked up my new 48 gal tank today and you guys have convinced me that a trip to Lowe's is next to get the electrical stuff!
 

Matt Carden

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Is it normal for current to flow through a grounding probe without any short?

I tried to solder the wire from a ground probe i had in a tank for less than a year. The solder wouldn't flow onto the wire. It kinda looked like it was burnt. I had all power running through a GFCI with the ground probe going back to same GFCI.
20200906_175015.jpg

You can see the wire on the left is the subject with the one on the right a new ground probe wire. It kinda looks like the insulation might be melted.
 

Brew12

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You normally would only get a tiny amount of current flow through a ground probe if there wasn't a faulted piece of equipment. Just enough to shut the induced voltage to ground.
Are you sure that isn't heat damage from when you were attempting to solder it?
 

Matt Carden

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It was like that when I stripped it. Turned black when I tried to solder it.
 

Matt Carden

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My heaters are 2 prong outlet plugs so maybe some current was leaking from heaters.
 

Brew12

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It was like that when I stripped it. Turned black when I tried to solder it.
It's possible that it is just a different type of cable.

My heaters are 2 prong outlet plugs so maybe some current was leaking from heaters.
A GFCI should trip regardless of if current is coming from a 2 prong or 3 prong device. GFCI's don't actually care about ground current and can't see it. They compare current between the hot and neutral. If they don't match, the GFCI assumes the missing current is going where it shouldn't and trips.
 
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