Major plumbing problems with new setup

[PNWCoralFarmer]

Howdy,

I finally got my new system plumbed yesterday, and I have run in to some major problems.

The primary issue is that my overflow is not flowing near enough water.

System:
256g
Reef Savvy ghost overflow plumbed w/ bean animal(1 inch piping, supposedly rated for 2000gph)
Sump is installed in the room behind the tank
Varios 8 and a ehiem 1260 return pumps

When I turn on just the varios 8(2700gph max) set it to 3 out of 5, I get around 700gph(as measured manually by filling a 5 gallon container in the sump. The ehiem is not on at all.

This flow of ~700gph overwhelms the full siphon on the bean animal with the gate valve all the way open. The secondary has to take on a lot of water and makes a ton of nosie. When I turn the varios down to power level 2, I manually measured the flow rate at about 600 gph. This allows the full siphon to do the majority of work(again, gate valve all the way open), with the secondary running much quieter(though I can still hear the water trickling down like I left a faucet running or something, certainly not completely quiet).

Thus I am trying to figure out why my bean animal is only flowing ~600gph when it should be doing like 2000gph. Id be happy with 1500gph.

I suspect some of this has to do with my plumbing configuration. It has a couple of 90's, ~4 feet of horizontal plumbing, and ~2.5 feet of total vertical drop as measured from bottom of the overflow to top of the water line in the sump:



Can someone please help me figure out what is going wrong here, and what my options are for fixing it? I was aiming to flow about 1500gph. My challenges here are that I am plumbed in to the room behind the tank, not under the tank. Therefore I cannot have a straight vertical drop to the sump.

Thanks,
Jesse

 

[CC13]

Howdy,

I finally got my new system plumbed yesterday, and I have run in to some major problems.

The primary issue is that my overflow is not flowing near enough water.

System:
256g
Reef Savvy ghost overflow plumbed w/ bean animal(1 inch piping, supposedly rated for 2000gph)
Sump is installed in the room behind the tank
Varios 8 and a ehiem 1260 return pumps

When I turn on just the varios 8(2700gph max) set it to 3 out of 5, I get around 700gph(as measured manually by filling a 5 gallon container in the sump. The ehiem is not on at all.

This flow of ~700gph overwhelms the full siphon on the bean animal with the gate valve all the way open. The secondary has to take on a lot of water and makes a ton of nosie. When I turn the varios down to power level 2, I manually measured the flow rate at about 600 gph. This allows the full siphon to do the majority of work(again, gate valve all the way open), with the secondary running much quieter(though I can still hear the water trickling down like I left a faucet running or something, certainly not completely quiet).

Thus I am trying to figure out why my bean animal is only flowing ~600gph when it should be doing like 2000gph. Id be happy with 1500gph.

I suspect some of this has to do with my plumbing configuration. It has a couple of 90's, ~4 feet of horizontal plumbing, and ~2.5 feet of total vertical drop as measured from bottom of the overflow to top of the water line in the sump:



Can someone please help me figure out what is going wrong here, and what my options are for fixing it? I was aiming to flow about 1500gph. My challenges here are that I am plumbed in to the room behind the tank, not under the tank. Therefore I cannot have a straight vertical drop to the sump.

Thanks,
Jesse

I am going to assume you are using 1" PVC?

I would use 1.5" if possible or stay with 1" and try flex PVC and 'bend' around corners and limit the number of fittings you use. Every 90 degree (or fitting) where the water is heading vertically and then hit a 90 vertical fitting, the water is slamming into itself which backs up the system if the PVC is not large enough.

Also, for straight horizontal runs, ALWAYS slope the pipe (as much as possible) so gravity helps with maintaining the water flow and speed. You can see this in your third picture. the pipe is dead straight which is less than ideal for water you want to continually keep flowing.

Essentially, your water is slowing down to the point where in the middle of the lines the water needs to be pushed from water coming from your tank instead of free flowing into your sump.

 

[EW_Fish]

You can always use 2 45's to make a 90' This could also help the problem.

 

[PNWCoralFarmer]

I am going to assume you are using 1" PVC?

I would use 1.5" if possible or stay with 1" and try flex PVC and 'bend' around corners and limit the number of fittings you use. Every 90 degree (or fitting) where the water is heading vertically and then hit a 90 vertical fitting, the water is slamming into itself which backs up the system if the PVC is not large enough.

Also, for straight horizontal runs, ALWAYS slope the pipe (as much as possible) so gravity helps with maintaining the water flow and speed. You can see this in your third picture. the pipe is dead straight which is less than ideal for water you want to continually keep flowing.

Essentially, your water is slowing down to the point where in the middle of the lines the water needs to be pushed from water coming from your tank instead of free flowing into your sump.

Thank you for the response. So you are suggesting I convert from 1 inch to 1.5 inch out of the overflow? Would this create a lot of noise in the pipes if I continue to use the same configuration?

This is going to be one expensive mistake if I have to replace all of the brand new plumbing...

 

[CC13]

Thank you for the response. So you are suggesting I I convert from 1 inch to 1.5 inch out of the overflow? Would this create a lot of noise in the pipes if I continue to use the same configuration?

This is going to be one expensive mistake if I have to replace all of the brand new plumbing...

I mean the less expensive would be to keep the 1" for now and see if you can use Flex PVC and slope and bend around corners. If this doesn't work you might have to increase the size. You can cut the vertical PVC after the overflow and connect the flex pvc with a 1" coupler. You can try this out and your cost would be minimized.

 

[Sailingeric]

Get a pipe cutter and use some joiners so you don't have to replace feet of pipe.

 

[WWIII]

You have the gate valve horizontally located? I'm not sure this will work as intended? I don't know for sure, but would try to mount it vertically. Of course if it's wide open it should be flowing more than 600 gph, the problem may be to get it set to run full siphon perfectly.

I'm not much help here, but maybe others will chime in on horizontal gate valve.

 

[CC13]

You have the gate valve horizontally located? I'm not sure this will work as intended? I don't know for sure, but would try to mount it vertically. Of course if it's wide open it should be flowing more than 600 gph, the problem may be to get it set to run full siphon perfectly.

I'm not much help here, but maybe others will chime in on horizontal gate valve.

That's a valid point I never thought about that either.... this might also affect the ability to run full siphon and dial it in consistently.

 

[lbacha]

What size bulkheads are in the ghost? If it’s rated for 2000 gph then it must be assuming that you are using all three bulkheads if it is 1”.

A 1” bulkhead can drain about 600-650 gph via gravity alone (no siphon)

If you create a siphon you can get a single 1” bulkhead up to about 900 gph

I don’t think you can get 1500 gph no matter how you configure your plumbing unless you use two of the bulkheads on a full siphon.

The straight runs definitely reduce this as you don’t have gravity on your side anymore for the siphon.

 

[PNWCoralFarmer]

What size bulkheads are in the ghost? If it’s rated for 2000 gph then it must be assuming that you are using all three bulkheads if it is 1”.

A 1” bulkhead can drain about 600-650 gph via gravity alone (no siphon)

If you create a siphon you can get a single 1” bulkhead up to about 900 gph

I don’t think you can get 1500 gph no matter how you configure your plumbing unless you use two of the bulkheads on a full siphon.

The straight runs definitely reduce this as you don’t have gravity on your side anymore for the siphon.

You know it is so confusing as a plumbing newbie, as other places I see folks say a 1 inch bean siphon can handle 2000gph no problem. Interestingly, it seems reefsavvy has recently de-rated it to 1500 gph.

Just trying to figure out my path of least resistance. I've already completed the renovation of the fish tank room, cut holes in walls, done the finishing(though I still need some trim around that hole :P), have the tanks, stands, and several hundred gallons of water all in place... If I were starting over Id do some things differently, but it is a lot harder now.

Thanks,
Jesse

 

[lbacha]

I looked up the ghost and it comes with 1.5” bulkheads which can handle between 1400-1600 via gravity and more if you have them under a siphon. Based on this I would say the ratings on the ghost are good for around 2000 gph with a herbie setup

 

[Foothill Corals]

This really should flow more than 700 even with the 90 deg fittings.

Are you getting full siphon?

That said I would be using 1 1/2" for the flow you are after.

 

[lmm1967]

those horizontal runs on the drains are going to drive you crazy. You have to get rid of them - they won't be stable, they won't start consistently & quickly etc. Do whatever you need to do in order to get your drains as close to vertical with little to no horizontal runs as possible.

 

[Foothill Corals]

those horizontal runs on the drains are going to drive you crazy. You have to get rid of them - they won't be stable, they won't start consistently & quickly etc. Do whatever you need to do in order to get your drains as close to vertical with little to no horizontal runs as possible.

If he is able to achieve full siphon there is no problem with the horizontal runs or the 90deg fittings. Both are very common on properly running BA Overflows.

I would change to 1 1/2" and put the valve lower on a vertical section pipe not a horizontal section.

 

[lmm1967]

If he is able to achieve full siphon there is no problem with the horizontal runs or the 90deg fittings. Both are very common on properly running BA Overflows.

He will not be able to consistently and quickly achieve full siphon. Air can be very challenging to purge from horizontal runs on a regular and consistent basis.

He will figure that out when he is not home, power blips or return pump shuts off for some other random reason, siphon doesn't start - either the pump will run dry or there will be a very wet floor. Maybe not first time, maybe not 10th time. But it will eventually happen.

 

[Foothill Corals]

He will not be able to consistently and quickly achieve full siphon. Air can be very challenging to purge from horizontal runs on a regular and consistent basis.

He will figure that out when he is not home, power blips or return pump shuts off for some other random reason, siphon doesn't start - either the pump will run dry or there will be a very wet floor.

Is this theory or are you talking from experience? I have 30" vertical run on mine and it starts up and goes to full siphon and purges ALL air in a few seconds.

There should be a secondary line plus an emergency line to prevent a flood. Mine has never used the emergency an barley uses the secondary.

 

[lmm1967]

Is this theory or are you talking from experience? I have 30" vertical run on mine and it starts up and goes to full siphon and purges ALL air in a few seconds.

Experience - and you can have as long of a vertical run as you want.

Horizontal runs will create issues.

 

[Brandon Wilcox]

I think the only way you're going to make any real difference in your flow is to increase drain diameter. The 1 inch pipe can only handle so much water even in a full siphon. Save yourself time and fix the drain pipes now.

 

[PNWCoralFarmer]

If he is able to achieve full siphon there is no problem with the horizontal runs or the 90deg fittings. Both are very common on properly running BA Overflows.

I would change to 1 1/2" and put the valve lower on a vertical section pipe not a horizontal section.

Just curious why either the 1 inch pipe or the horizontal gate valve would cause me to have a siphon that is limited to ~600gph?

I'll do what needs to be done to get it to work, I jsut want to make sure it will be the final time I have to do plumbing :)

 

[lmm1967]

Experience - and you can have as long of a vertical run as you want.

Horizontal runs will create issues.

For clarity - and this part is theory - I believe you can get away with some horizontal runs - however - they should be a fraction of the length of vertical drop.
I have 24" vertical, then had 18" of horizontal and then another 8" vertical. Startup was very inconsistent and at times would not be running a full siphon after even 30 minutes.

Once I was able to get rid of the long horizontal runs and switch over to 6 - 8" runs that are more like a 45 degree angle - all my siphon starting problems went away.