Acclimation Ammonia Confusion

[Mariette]

Not sure which forum this goes in....

I’ve read Hot Rocks’ quarantine protocol (I’d post a link here but I don’t know how) and it’s awesome. I’ve stocked a pile of meds and am ready for a new fish (once I take care of this pesky velvet of course). I’m just confused about this part:

“Acclimate (float for 30-45min in bag and release) fish directly into a QT that is pre-dosed to 1.0ppm copper (copper power) upon arrival. This is much safer than drip acclimation and removes the possibility of ammonia exposure during acclimation.”

Where’s the ammonia coming from? The fish? If so, wouldn’t it be there during the bag float? I’m SURE hot rocks (who is without a doubt WAAAAAY more knowledgeable than I am) is right. I’m just trying to understand

TIA

 

[Mastiffsrule]

He would be best to answer, but I believe yes, he is referring to ammonia build up from fish waste while it sits in a bags during a long drip acclimation.

That is my guess. @HotRocks

 

[Mariette]

He would be best to answer, but I believe yes, he is referring to ammonia build up from fish waste while it sits in a bags during a long drip acclimation.

That is my guess. @HotRocks

That’s what I was thinking but isn’t the ammonia building up in the floating bag too? If it’s in a drip acclimation, at least it’s being diluted. No? That’s what throwing me off.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

The drip acclimation is a longer process, but let’s see what hot rocks says.

 

[Mariette]

The drip acclimation is a longer process, but let’s see what hot rocks says.

@HotRocks? sorry to summon you. And thank you for the very informative post

 

[Mariette]

The drip acclimation is a longer process, but let’s see what hot rocks says.

PS - Mastiffs totally rule. Care to share a pic?

 

[HotRocks]

Sorry that is worded kind of strange now that I see it by itself.

Here is the deal. You leave the bags sealed while floating. If the fish are shipped overnight they are filled with pure oxygen when packed, which actually prevents ammonia exposure (until you open the bag). So as long as your salinity matches after floating for 30 min you just open the bag and release the fish immediately into your tank. Never any ammonia exposure.

How do you know if salinity matches without opening the bag? Call and ask what the salinity is they are being shipped at. (Still check once temp acclimated to be sure, have freshwater ready in case you have to lower salinity) My shipments all from same online vendor come in consistently at 1.018-1.019. So I set all QTs at 1.018 on delivery days. As long as the salinity is at or higher than the tank it's safe. If it's way lower you have to lower the salinity as it's not safe to expose the fish to a rapid increase in salinity.

I did once have a bag that came in at 1.009 from another vendor I don't usually use. So I had to drop the salinity in one of my tanks for that fish.

However if you drip acclimate, even though you are diluting the bag water, the fish has expelled waste in that small amount of water for up to 18-24hrs. So you are exposing the fish to ammonia and even trace amounts can start to cause Gill and internal organ damage very quickly.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

@HotRocks? sorry to summon you. And thank you for the very informative post

Sorry, no pix.when I lost my mastiff I put her pix on my credit card, nightstand and desk. Didn’t keep her on my phone,just weird that way. This way I see her at night, working, and paying for things.

 

[Mariette]

Sorry that is worded kind of strange now that I see it by itself.

Here is the deal. You leave the bags sealed while floating. If the fish are shipped overnight they are filled with pure oxygen when packed, which actually prevents ammonia exposure (until you open the bag). So as long as your salinity matches after floating for 30 min you just open the bag and release the fish immediately into your tank. Never any ammonia exposure.

How do you know if salinity matches without opening the bag? Call and ask what the salinity is they are being shipped at. (Still check once temp acclimated to be sure, have freshwater ready in case you have to lower salinity) My shipments all from same online vendor come in consistently at 1.018-1.019. So I set all QTs at 1.018 on delivery days. As long as the salinity is at or higher than the tank it's safe. If it's way lower you have to lower the salinity as it's not safe to expose the fish to a rapid increase in salinity.

I did once have a bag that came in at 1.009 from another vendor I don't usually use. So I had to drop the salinity in one of my tanks for that fish.

However if you drip acclimate, even though you are diluting the bag water, the fish has expelled waste in that small amount of water for up to 18-24hrs. So you are exposing the fish to ammonia and even trace amounts can start to cause Gill and internal organ damage very quickly.

OMG OMG OMG I feel like I’m talking to royalty.

Oooohhhhhhh now I get it. That makes perfect sense. Thank you!!! I’ve never Ordered fish online. Always bought from LFS. That being said, no pure oxygen in bag...better to float or drip? Also, I tend to float w bag open. I assumed everyone did?

Love the qt post by the way. Much appreciated

 

[Mariette]

Sorry, no pix.when I lost my mastiff I put her pix on my credit card, nightstand and desk. Didn’t keep her on my phone,just weird that way. This way I see her at night, working, and paying for things.

Oh nooooo. I’m sorry. I lost mine too to cancer. At just 2 yrs and 3 mths old. Even without the cancer, dogs just don’t live long enough

 

[HotRocks]

OMG OMG OMG I feel like I’m talking to royalty.

Oooohhhhhhh now I get it. That makes perfect sense. Thank you!!! I’ve never Ordered fish online. Always bought from LFS. That being said, no pure oxygen in bag...better to float or drip? Also, I tend to float w bag open. I assumed everyone did?

Love the qt post by the way. Much appreciated

LOL

If you are getting from an LFS it doesn't matter if you float opened or closed. Still the best method to use IMO.

Glad the thread is helpful, that's what I'm here for

 

[Mariette]

LOL

If you are getting from an LFS it doesn't matter if you float opened or closed. Still the best method to use IMO.

Glad the thread is helpful, that's what I'm here for

Awesome. Floating from now on. Thx again

 

[HotRocks]

Awesome. Floating from now on. Thx again

Anytime!

 

[vbennett]

That’s what I was thinking but isn’t the ammonia building up in the floating bag too? If it’s in a drip acclimation, at least it’s being diluted. No? That’s what throwing me off.

The ammonia in the bag in the bag does not pose a problem until the bag is opened and the air hits it. The oxygen causes the ammonia to react thus causing your fish to breath/pass water through its gills. the ammonia in turn causes the fish to literally burn from the inside out, This is not noticeable for the 1st day or 2 but then the poor thing is at the top of the tank gasping for air until it eventually dies..
What I do is float the bag (sealed) for approx. 20-30 min. I have a bucket ready with a net suspended over the top of the bucket. Cut the bag over the bucket and immediately pour the entire bag into the net and then put your fish into the quarantine tank. Also, I do NOT float my fish in my display tank, I float them in the quarantine tank (same water temp)

 

[Mariette]

The ammonia in the bag in the bag does not pose a problem until the bag is opened and the air hits it. The oxygen causes the ammonia to react thus causing your fish to breath/pass water through its gills. the ammonia in turn causes the fish to literally burn from the inside out, This is not noticeable for the 1st day or 2 but then the poor thing is at the top of the tank gasping for air until it eventually dies..
What I do is float the bag (sealed) for approx. 20-30 min. I have a bucket ready with a net suspended over the top of the bucket. Cut the bag over the bucket and immediately pour the entire bag into the net and then put your fish into the quarantine tank. Also, I do NOT float my fish in my display tank, I float them in the quarantine tank (same water temp)

Makes sense. Thx

 

[saltyhog]

Actually the reason the ammonia is not an issue in the bag is because the fish's respiration creates CO2 that lowers the pH below 6.5. At that pH ammonia is not toxic. When you open the bag the CO2 level equalizes with the air in the room and pH rapidly rises. This causes the ammonia to become toxic. It really doesn't have anything to do with oxygen levels or flow over the fish's gills.

 

[vbennett]

Actually the reason the ammonia is not an issue in the bag is because the fish's respiration creates CO2 that lowers the pH below 6.5. At that pH ammonia is not toxic. When you open the bag the CO2 level equalizes with the air in the room and pH rapidly rises. This causes the ammonia to become toxic. It really doesn't have anything to do with oxygen levels or flow over the fish's gills.

Actually it does IMHO but......

 

[vbennett]

Actually it does IMHO but......

So here is the gist of the ammonia spike in the bag when "shipped"
Total ammonia does not change due to aeration, and will, in fact, drop during drip acclimation.

But the low pH in the shipping bag due to extra CO2 in in shifts the ammonia species more into ammonium and less free NH3. The free NH3 crosses membranes much more easily and so is more toxic.

So when acclimating, the pH will generally be rising from CO2 leaving the bag water, and from higher pH tank water entering it. So the free ammonia increases, increasing toxicity, even though total ammonia may be stable or declining.
If you are getting livestock locally then drip acclimation is safe

 

[SailAnnapolis]

Sorry to revive an old thread but let’s say you get surprised and don’t know the salinity of the shipped online bag. Once you open the bag said ph is like 6.5 ammonia not as toxic. Can’t you do a quick 50 percent bag water change. That cuts the ammonia in half and also gets you closer to the tanks PH ?
if the salinity did match already and you just floated and dumped the fish aren’t you throwing him from 6.5 to 8.2ph suddenly ?