DIY Lanthanum Dosing

[Dan_P]

I'm not sure what material you are asking about, but phosphate bound to a surface is in constant flux between bound to the surface and free in the water.

That is what I observed for aragonite sand.

I did observe that not all the phosphate comes off again. I did not do the work needed to determine if there was irreversible adsorption for sure and if there was did it diminish the capacity of the aragonite sand to adsorb phosphate. The other aspect is whether the aragonite surface becomes so fouled with life that adsorption stops.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is what I was getting at with my terribly worded post/question. I was under the impression that if Phosphate are present, that which is removed from the rock will be replaced... Idk if I'm wording it correctly

Phosphate is constantly going on and off, and the amount that is on at any given time is determined by the concentration in the bulk water,

If you reduce the amount in the bulk water, some comes off the rock and you effectively reduce the bound amount.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That is what I observed for aragonite sand.

I did observe that not all the phosphate comes off again. I did not do the work needed to determine if there was irreversible adsorption for sure and if there was did it diminish the capacity of the aragonite sand to adsorb phosphate. The other aspect is whether the aragonite surface becomes so fouled with life that adsorption stops.

Fouling with other stuff will compete with phosphate binding.

I think the only truly irreversible binding is if the bound phosphate gets buried by other stuff, such as depositing calcium or magnesium carbonate.

 

[areefer01]

I may have missed it but was a recommended dilution / mix if one used SeaKlear mentioned? I see a few posted but not sure if that is based on a similar approach as post one by RHF or pure dilution and then slowly increasing until stability or a small change in a test.

I've personally only used phosphate rx and GFO. GFO is cumbersome to say the least.

 

[Curiousbranching]

Can I add CaCO3 to this solution to give the same effect as KZ CS plus?

 

[Doctorgori]

older thread but I lurked …..
I read most of this thread sans mini argument,
…wondering if anyone else does the following and if its wrong:

Anyway: I use LC in tandem with GFO…again not sure if others do this or if its “Chemically stupid” as it seems overkill but my logic driven by fear of GFO stripping (to zero).
Added: also not sure if this is “safe” per se, but no issues so far…
- methodology is to use 1/2 the recommended dosage of gfo and adjust bi-weekly with LC (yes I am “chasing numbers” ) but IMO a important one… I swap out my GFO after 7 or 10 days depending and I dose my LC into the skimmer chamber..

I’ve never witness any tang deaths or livestock issues with this perhaps unscientific method but it does avoid phosphate stripping associated with overdosing GFO

I “ chase numbers” keeping levels between .05 - .1 per Hanna ULR 774
I also monitor my glass algae with the dusty brown = bad and hard green “specks” & coraline = good

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can I add CaCO3 to this solution to give the same effect as KZ CS plus?

Some of the lanthanum will bind to the calcium carbonate, but I don’t foresee other apparent isssues.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

older thread but I lurked …..
I read most of this thread sans mini argument,
…wondering if anyone else does the following and if its wrong:

Anyway: I use LC in tandem with GFO…again not sure if others do this or if its “Chemically stupid” as it seems overkill but my logic driven by fear of GFO stripping (to zero).
Added: also not sure if this is “safe” per se, but no issues so far…
- methodology is to use 1/2 the recommended dosage of gfo and adjust bi-weekly with LC (yes I am “chasing numbers” ) but IMO a important one… I swap out my GFO after 7 or 10 days depending and I dose my LC into the skimmer chamber..

I’ve never witness any tang deaths or livestock issues with this perhaps unscientific method but it does avoid phosphate stripping associated with overdosing GFO

I “ chase numbers” keeping levels between .05 - .1 per Hanna ULR 774
I also monitor my glass algae with the dusty brown = bad and hard green “specks” & coraline = good

I do not see any issue with using lanthanum and GFO at the same time.

 

[Curiousbranching]

Some of the lanthanum will bind to the calcium carbonate, but I don’t foresee other apparent isssues.

Thank you

 

[MickeyCT]

I may have missed it but is there a suggested/recommended place to by the lanthanum chloride heptahydrate crystals? Amazon has it from Chemsaver but description clearly says AR grade and NOT for human, animal, or food use. Is this okay? I assume this would be purer than SeaKlear??

 

[kenchilada]

Good thread but, wow, the first page is some of the dumbest online arguing ever created.

Any opinion on whether it’s better to drip this or use a doser?

 

[areefer01]

Good thread but, wow, the first page is some of the dumbest online arguing ever created.

Welcome to the internet....

Any opinion on whether it’s better to drip this or use a doser?

Probably more control using a dosing device. IV bag or drip method there is probably some risk with the pinch roller and drip rate. Dosing head you more or less can control the amount over time better assuming it is calibrated of course. Then there is the manual products like phosphate rx which you calculate water volume and then add.

Not sure if there is a better or best but I can see a dosing pump being safer with less room for error. Probably easier to dose into a skimmer. The rest can be done in a filter sock so probably not a factor.

Personal preference I guess.

 

[Dolphis]

Since LC binds to Phosphate and will pull it from the rock and substrate, would it be ok to leave chato or would it leach?
Also, I was under the impression LC will pull any phosphate bound to GFO, how true is that?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Since LC binds to Phosphate and will pull it from the rock and substrate, would it be ok to leave chato or would it leach?
Also, I was under the impression LC will pull any phosphate bound to GFO, how true is that?

Lanthanum will remove free phosphate from the water, and that alone may harm chaetomorpha if the levels get too low, but it is not going to pull organic phosphate (such as DNA, RNA, phospholipids, etc.) out of the chaeto to kill it.

There will be a balance between phosphate bound to GFO and to lanthanum when both are present. I'm not sure where that equilibrium lies, but I am sure the relative ratio between the two will depend on how much phosphate remains in solution.

 

[jda]

Even if the LC pulls po4 from the GFO, the LC will quickly be all bound up and the po4 can then bind some more. Given that the LC can bind waterborne po4 in a few seconds, I imagine that nobody would even notice this happening.

 

[Dolphis]

Even if the LC pulls po4 from the GFO, the LC will quickly be all bound up and the po4 can then bind some more. Given that the LC can bind waterborne po4 in a few seconds, I imagine that nobody would even notice this happening.

I should have better explained that I currently have a GFO reactor and was wondering if it would be better to take it out of the sump while dosing LC.

I would only be dosing once a day, but I’d imagine when all the phosphate has been absorbed from the water, it would also bind from the available GFO, along with the rock and substrate

 

[Dolphis]

Lanthanum will remove free phosphate from the water, and that alone may harm chaetomorpha if the levels get too low, but it is not going to pull organic phosphate (such as DNA, RNA, phospholipids, etc.) out of the chaeto to kill it.

There will be a balance between phosphate bound to GFO and to lanthanum when both are present. I'm not sure where that equilibrium lies, but I am sure the relative ratio between the two will depend on how much phosphate remains in solution.

Thank you so much for the clarification!

I would only lower phosphate down to 0.10 from my current 0.30 and let the chaeto take over from there

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you so much for the clarification!

I would only lower phosphate down to 0.10 from my current 0.30 and let the chaeto take over from there

That sounds like a fine plan, and I think you can remove the GFO or not and proceed either way.

 

[Dolphis]

That sounds like a fine plan, and I think you can remove the GFO or not and proceed either way.

Great!
Thanks for your insight, it’s very helpful!

 

[DaddyFish]

@Randy Holmes-Farley thank you very much for information, especially the dilution formula at the beginning. It was exactly what I came looking for and I got it without having to PM you in fear of releasing the LaCl3 police!

I have been using LaCl3 in various forms over the past two years on systems ranging from HOB with multi-layer poly filtration, filter socks, multi-stage foam/poly polishing pad and most recently Trigger Systems to Red Sea Reefmat fleece.

What I find now with RS fleece is that I need to slow down the process and give the fleece more time to collect precipitants than I typically allow in multi-layer poly or 5-micron filter sock systems. And just for sharing data...
I typically consume 30% additional fleece in a 24-hour period when I dose LaCl3 for a 0.03-0.05 Phosphate reduction.

All that said, I would be more comfortable with a secondary polishing filtration in-line for the 1-2 hour LaCl3 dosing regimen. The RS Reefmat fleece is a bit too coarse to catch everything that a 5-micron sock catches. And ongoing success with LaCl3 is in my opinion, greatly dependent on the effectiveness of the mechanical filtration downstream of dosing.

One question I have that's more fluid dynamics than chemistry is... Would further dilution of LaCl3 show any significant improvement on the RS fleece's ability to capture particles? My gut says "not really".