Reef Breeders Bricked

[slingfox]

It’s not really an app update, while at the same time it is. An update would imply a change from one revision to another.

It’s a switch to a replacement app, something different completely and the 3d party vendor that owned the old one, has shut it down and deleted it.

For some people, the lights are paired to an app that no longer exists. There is a new app, but it currently can’t remove the other companies security certificate.

The light also woud not be “bricked” it would also continue to run its existing schedule on its own, from its internal clock, but if you reset the light it defaults to being on at 100% it seems

It is an app update: The old app got replaced by a new one and if existing users didn’t update in time there is a possibility their light would not work anymore. The decision to abandon the old app was ReefBreeders decision. It is doubtful the app developer they used deleted it “out of spite”—that is a very skewed and unrealistic way to look at the situation! I assume the original app developer would have loved to keep the old app running but had no reason to do so if they weren’t getting paid.

It is not unreasonable for ReefBreeders to want to use its own app going forward. As I said, it looks like they are trying to handle the situation in a reasonable way. That said, there is absolutely no need to try to white knight for ReefBreeders. We know you like the company but it doesn’t look great to bend over backwards for them. Their actions will ultimately be their best defense.

 

[smitten with ocean life]

this whole thread is one reason why i will do almost anything to avoid equipment that requires an app. if i find out it requires an app on a phone to run it, back it goes. no thank you!

 

[FishLvR]

I paid full price because i asked liam here to send a link to the $30 board and got no answer. I received no email with how to order at $30. My lights are at surface of the sun right now so i got the boards ordered because tomorrow is a holiday and who knows how long its going to take?

This is 100% reefbreeders fault no matter how many emails they sent. The boards should be free for original purchasers because this is poor forsight. Its not my fault the app you chose didn't work long term.

Hopefully liam will see my order and discount it. 350 bucks is crazy.

I doubt he will discount the order. People like that, they dont.

How long should i wait for this $30 board? I have a tank with solar flare on top. You all read the two emails i got. He didnt send the link, i asked for it here too.

You know i would have been ok with the $30 board. But that email was a real gem. It upset me.

Anyway im over it. I am.

 

[OnePiece Corals]

I have owned RB and they were great lights.
In my opinion the replacement boards or whatever is needed should not be at a cost to the user regardless of switching app or software or whatever and regardless of timeframe. People spend thier hard earned money and choose a Seller that they trust based on reviews/ referrals or just pure curiosity so in my humble opinion Reefbreeders should take care of thier customers regardless of the situation.

I understand it cost reefbreeders money to migrate to new app platform and such , however that should be already included in the cost of R&D therefore the cost of the fixtures when a customer purchases then the the first place. It shouldn't be an add on cost.

Accually Reefbreeders took care of me in the past when I upgraded from v4 to pro so I don't doubt they will do right by you.

 

[abc123]

It’s not really an app update, while at the same time it is. An update would imply a change from one revision to another.

It’s a switch to a replacement app, something different completely and the 3d party vendor that owned the old one, has shut it down and deleted it.

For some people, the lights are paired to an app that no longer exists. There is a new app, but it currently can’t remove the other companies security certificate.

The light also woud not be “bricked” it would also continue to run its existing schedule on its own, from its internal clock, but if you reset the light it defaults to being on at 100% it seems

This is what should have been in the emails sent explaining exactly what would happen if you didn’t switch while both apps were up.

 

[FishLvR]

Btw, I made sweet potatoes on the lights. I wasnt about to let that heat go to waste.

The fans made a nice convection oven effect.

 

[VintageReefer]

It is an app update:

It is not an update. It’s a replacement. It’s like using quicken for years and then being told you need to switch to TurboTax. You’re not updating quicken to TurboTax. You are uninstalling quicken and installing TurboTax, a new program by a different company. If you call that an update, you aren’t using the correct terminology.

The old app got replaced by a new one and if existing users didn’t update in time there is a possibility their light would not work anymore. The decision to abandon the old app was ReefBreeders decision. It is doubtful the app developer they used deleted it “out of spite”—that is a very skewed and unrealistic way to look at the situation! I assume the original app developer would have loved to keep the old app running but had no reason to do so if they weren’t getting paid.

Turning it off or disabling access is one thing. Deleting it with no ability to restore it sounds unnecessary to me, especially without a period of time waited

It is not unreasonable for ReefBreeders to want to use its own app going forward. As I said, it looks like they are trying to handle the situation in a reasonable way. That said, there is absolutely no need to try to white knight for ReefBreeders. We know you like the company but it doesn’t look great to bend over backwards for them. Their actions will ultimately be their best defense.

If you notice I make no comment on the email interactions, as I don’t see the full chain, and I make no assumptions on what either side said or didn’t say.

Should full blame be put on RB? I don’t know, doesn’t really matter. A situation happened for some users who missed the emails and RB is taking almost $150 off a part to fix lights for people that either actively CHOSE not to upgrade, or DIDNT KNOW they had to.

I could easily see other companies milking their customers into buying the part full price. 30$ isn’t that bad nor is it being greedy.

 

[slingfox]

Turning it off or disabling access is one thing. Deleting it with no ability to restore it sounds unnecessary to me, especially without a period of time waited

App developers don’t go around needlessly “deleting” apps and programs they developed. Without a doubt the original app developer would have loved to keep the original app up and running provided they continued to get paid for that service, to think otherwise is quite naive.

Discontinuation of the original app was ReefBreeders decision and a subset of its customers suffers. An app development business will not last long if it goes around, without good reason, “disabling access . . . with no ability to restore it.” Do you expect outsourced developers to continue to support their software without pay?

You don’t want to comment on the customer service interaction screenshots but somehow feel compelled to opine on the motivations of thr original app developers based on little evidence other than the word of ReedBreeders which you may or may not have interpreted?

Also, I hope you realize that $150 off is not a $150 hit to ReefBreeders bottom line. That is a $150 discount to solution for a problem ReefBreeders created, I don’t think you would be happy if you bought a light in February and it stops working a few months later and you find out the only solution is to buy a new controller board for $150. Offering to sell the solution for $30 should not been seen as super generous but something that should simply be done. Why the discount was not offered to OP via email immediately is a mystery only Reef Breeders knows the answer to.

I don’t think you are doing ReefBreeders any favors by white knighting so hard. The bias is so evident it undermines your credibility.

 

[VintageReefer]

App developers don’t go around needlessly “deleting” apps and programs they developed. Without a doubt the original app developer would have loved to keep the original app up and running provided they continued to get paid for that service, to think otherwise is quite naive.

Thought I was clear but maybe somethings being missed. Obviously the original app developers didn’t delete the app for no reason. RB also didn’t decide to discontinue using their app and to stop paying them. They didn’t want to buy it, and the developer then shut it off and deleted it, instead of continuing with a monthly billing model

Discontinuation of the original app was ReefBreeders decision and a subset of its customers suffers. An app development business will not last long if it goes around, without good reason, “disabling access . . . with no ability to restore it.” Do you expect outsourced developers to continue to support their software without pay?

Of course not. But, they could have archived it or had a period of time where it was offline, but could be stood back up for a charge, if RB decided they needed it back for a period of time.

It’s standard practice to keep a backup or archive. These guys heard they were going to lose RB as a customer, and deleted their side of the app entirely, and all data, that’s not normal. I’m a support organization manager in SAAS and I’ll tell you, even if a client leaves, we don’t delete our programs or data. It’s archived for a period of time before that happens.

You don’t want to comment on the customer service interaction screenshots but somehow feel compelled to opine on the motivations of thr original app developers based on little evidence other than the word of ReedBreeders which you may or may not have interpreted?

I stood up for those affected and due to my background I offered to try and find solutions to the situation. My first thought was pay for another month and have the the old app brought back online. RB tried and the app developer told them they deleted it completly along with all end user accounts and login data

Also, I hope you realize that $150 off is not a $150 hit to ReefBreeders bottom line. That is a $150 discount to solution for a problem ReefBreeders created,

The chip is 175, and while it doesnt cost them 175, it does cost them a lot more than 30$. Each one sold at 30$ is a loss for them and they are paying the rest out of pocket. I never said they were losing 150, I said they are discounting it 150.

I don’t think you would be happy if you bought a light in February and it stops working a few months later and you find out the only solution is to buy a new controller board for $150.

I would have installed the newest version of the app. Think about it, why would you buy a new light and install a old app by another vendor instead of the official and current app?

Offering to sell the solution for $30 should not been seen as super generous but something that should simply be done.

Agreed

Why the discount was not offered to OP via email immediately is a mystery only Reef Breeders knows the answer to.

Per RB earlier post, the option didn’t exist at the time of the email chain. It was just created as a new solution, since the manual migration steps are harder than expected. The original quote of 30$ was for a manual account migration, they decided to offer the wifi board at a discounted rate and price match the original quote, in lieu of the planned solution that isn’t ready due to unexpected delays.

This upcoming shutdown was also explained and offered via warning emails prior to the shutdown date

I don’t think you are doing ReefBreeders any favors by white knighting so hard. The bias is so evident it undermines your credibility think there’s blame on both sides do

I dunno maybe I’m biased based on my personal job? If I warn my clients that they need to upgrade and they have 2 years to do it optionally, and then 2-3 months of warnings that it must be done, and they don’t do it…well I’m not taking the blame when they have issues. Ill help them sure, I’ll be sympathetic to those that legit missed the emails, I’ll help them out and give them discounted rates for the hours needed from my team to manually get them back in action, but would I take the full blame…nope.

This happens a lot in my industry with windows security updates. We will warn clients they need to take these security patches and the majority do. Some choose not to or delay the patching. Then when someone gets hacked due to the latest windows exploit - well that could have been avoided if they took the steps we recommended and offered for free months ago.

 

[Stang67]

this whole thread is one reason why i will do almost anything to avoid equipment that requires an app. if i find out it requires an app on a phone to run it, back it goes. no thank you!

Im very lucky I was able to get the photons that are remote controlled :)

 

[VintageReefer]

OP can’t play victim here. Back in April they made a thread asking if they need to upgrade to the new app.

Just today I found out there is another app that I am supposed to be using.

They knew, back in April, that they were supposed to be using the new app.

They were told yes, and then I added to the thread and gave links to RB post explaining the reasons why.

Here is the thread the op made, specifically about this, where they were told yes they need to update

Reefbreeder's App??

Just today I found out there is another app that I am supposed to be using. These are Photon V2, is that like a thing? Oooooorrrrrr is it something they tried and like every other thing in this cursed hobby they scrapped it when, I'm guessing based on 25 years in the hobby, it didn't work at...

www.reef2reef.com

They chose not to. This was not a situation where they weren’t notified or missed the memo. They were aware as of the date of that thread, they asked for confirmation and were told yes, and then chose not to.

The old app shut down also did not brick their light. It would retain the schedule in internal memory. They chose to perform a factory reset on it when they couldn’t get the old app to work on the new phone. This cleared the schedule from the light and is causing the light to be at 100%

 

[wiriza01]

Going back to the " curl idea" but connected to RB Photon V2 WIFI and:


Areas of "curiosity / interest"

http://192.168.4.1/rpc/rpc.list

["Wifi.PortalScan","WiFi.PortalTest","WiFi.ConnectSSID","Debug.IsCloudConnected","Debug.GetDiagnosticDetails","Debug.GetDiagnostic","Sys.GetUID","OTA.SetBootState","OTA.GetBootState","OTA.Status","OTA.End","OTA.Write","OTA.Begin","OTA.CreateSnapshot","OTA.Revert","OTA.Commit","OTA.Update","Dev.Remove","Dev.Erase","Dev.Write","Dev.Read","Dev.Create","FS.Umount","FS.Mount","FS.Mkfs","FS.Rename","FS.Remove","FS.Put","FS.Get","FS.ListExt","FS.List","Config.Save","Config.Set","Config.Get","Sys.SetDebug","Sys.GetInfo","Sys.Reboot","RPC.Ping","RPC.Describe","RPC.List"]

FS.ListExt list filenames w/ Ext and see the PEM / CERT files name": "aws-esp32_BC7xxx.crt.pem ..
would these be the certs in question? If in the theoretical software world Yes then possible command to del files and or command to reset be it revert snapshot or other options... no idea if this is a waste of time or if the developers have insight. I got "this far" w/o any "knowing's" and rather than continuation of possibly the unknown ask if within the RPC commands a set of instructions could be provided to remove offending certs and or resetting the original board config? Has this option been reviewed asked to the software dev teams?

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

This Forum is exactly why I stay away from any lights that are Bluetooth and/or WiFi. There’s is no need to see what your lights are doing from work or while on vacation. That’s why I stick with the 21LEDUSA and the SunSetter Controller. They have made minor improvements in the light spectrum over the years, and the Controller will run more ReefBars than before. You really ought to go to their Website and read up on them. The only obstacle on growing corals is the water, itself.

 

[slingfox]

OP can’t play victim here. Back in April they made a thread asking if they need to upgrade to the new app.


They knew, back in April, that they were supposed to be using the new app.

They were told yes, and then I added to the thread and gave links to RB post explaining the reasons why.

Here is the thread the op made, specifically about this, where they were told yes they need to update

Reefbreeder's App??

Just today I found out there is another app that I am supposed to be using. These are Photon V2, is that like a thing? Oooooorrrrrr is it something they tried and like every other thing in this cursed hobby they scrapped it when, I'm guessing based on 25 years in the hobby, it didn't work at...

www.reef2reef.com

They chose not to. This was not a situation where they weren’t notified or missed the memo. They were aware as of the date of that thread, they asked for confirmation and were told yes, and then chose not to.

The old app shut down also did not brick their light. It would retain the schedule in internal memory. They chose to perform a factory reset on it when they couldn’t get the old app to work on the new phone. This cleared the schedule from the light and is causing the light to be at 100%

A very unfortunate the circumstance all around. It seems like ReefBreeders is trying to do the right thing for its customers. The population of users affected is hopefully very small. Perhaps this thread will be useful for others who find themselves in a similar state in the future. Don’t be afraid of technology folks. It is generally very helpful to humanity

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

 

[rayadog]

Given the context of 2 yrs, if they were short.. I get it lol. When sunsetting something you can’t cater to everyone. It is very human to, idk what to call it in this context, to become “alarm fatigued.” I saw it a lot, mostly working with the new generation out of college these day. They were really bad at reading their work emails, teams, etc. I.E., yea we phased out that program as we said we would 6 months ago and reminded you repeatedly as it approached. In actuality most things took a year, so I definitely get becoming blasé to hearing about a change that seemingly doesn’t come. Maybe issues with development but if anything I would only blame them for taking too long with 2 years and nothing else. Everything else is fair. Given this is JUST a reef light and OP bought right back in lol, this is a fairly easy lesson learned. It could be a lot worse like getting locked out of an investment account, etc. Idk how else a company is supposed to get a hold of consumers, ad emails are pretty quick to discern and delete amongst important emails.

Sorry for the hit

 

[js-3Design]

Imagine having a light with wifi that uses a simple esp32 like controller and a local webpage based controls.. no app. No certification... add a simple button to physically turn of the wifi board. No Vulnerabilities...
And no problems when a company goes under and an app goes offline.

But hey, who am I.....

 

[VintageReefer]

I’m sure RB will be refunding the difference, give them a chance, it’s a Holiday and the business is closed today.

 

[Alanc425]

OP can’t play victim here. Back in April they made a thread asking if they need to upgrade to the new app.


They knew, back in April, that they were supposed to be using the new app.

They were told yes, and then I added to the thread and gave links to RB post explaining the reasons why.

Here is the thread the op made, specifically about this, where they were told yes they need to update

Reefbreeder's App??

Just today I found out there is another app that I am supposed to be using. These are Photon V2, is that like a thing? Oooooorrrrrr is it something they tried and like every other thing in this cursed hobby they scrapped it when, I'm guessing based on 25 years in the hobby, it didn't work at...

www.reef2reef.com

They chose not to. This was not a situation where they weren’t notified or missed the memo. They were aware as of the date of that thread, they asked for confirmation and were told yes, and then chose not to.

The old app shut down also did not brick their light. It would retain the schedule in internal memory. They chose to perform a factory reset on it when they couldn’t get the old app to work on the new phone. This cleared the schedule from the light and is causing the light to be at 100%

Insane how OP is trying to frame this like they didn’t get the email when they knew they needed to update the whole time.

Rude or not (it’s not), RB’s response of “you should have upgraded” is 100% appropriate.

And you waited—what—45 minutes between asking RB for the discounted link and then giving up and ordering them at full price for $350 yesterday? During Thanksgiving week when people are off?

 

[FishLvR]

It is an app update:

It is not an update. It’s a replacement. It’s like using quicken for years and then being told you need to switch to TurboTax. You’re not updating quicken to TurboTax. You are uninstalling quicken and installing TurboTax, a new program by a different company. If you call that an update, you aren’t using the correct terminology.

The old app got replaced by a new one and if existing users didn’t update in time there is a possibility their light would not work anymore. The decision to abandon the old app was ReefBreeders decision. It is doubtful the app developer they used deleted it “out of spite”—that is a very skewed and unrealistic way to look at the situation! I assume the original app developer would have loved to keep the old app running but had no reason to do so if they weren’t getting paid.

Turning it off or disabling access is one thing. Deleting it with no ability to restore it sounds unnecessary to me, especially without a period of time waited

It is not unreasonable for ReefBreeders to want to use its own app going forward. As I said, it looks like they are trying to handle the situation in a reasonable way. That said, there is absolutely no need to try to white knight for ReefBreeders. We know you like the company but it doesn’t look great to bend over backwards for them. Their actions will ultimately be their best defense.

If you notice I make no comment on the email interactions, as I don’t see the full chain, and I make no assumptions on what either side said or didn’t say.

Should full blame be put on RB? I don’t know, doesn’t really matter. A situation happened for some users who missed the emails and RB is taking almost $150 off a part to fix lights for people that either actively CHOSE not to upgrade, or DIDNT KNOW they had to.

I could easily see other companies milking their customers into buying the part full price. 30$ isn’t that bad nor is it being greedy.

That was it. Two emails. I just wanted troubleshooting. I didnt know there was a board because he didn't say anything about it until he posted here. Thats when i got upset because he could have emailed that to me with a link for the 30 dollar board. Whatever. I paid the full price just to get the ball rolling.

 

[FishLvR]

Going back to the " curl idea" but connected to RB Photon V2 WIFI and:


Areas of "curiosity / interest"

http://192.168.4.1/rpc/rpc.list

["Wifi.PortalScan","WiFi.PortalTest","WiFi.ConnectSSID","Debug.IsCloudConnected","Debug.GetDiagnosticDetails","Debug.GetDiagnostic","Sys.GetUID","OTA.SetBootState","OTA.GetBootState","OTA.Status","OTA.End","OTA.Write","OTA.Begin","OTA.CreateSnapshot","OTA.Revert","OTA.Commit","OTA.Update","Dev.Remove","Dev.Erase","Dev.Write","Dev.Read","Dev.Create","FS.Umount","FS.Mount","FS.Mkfs","FS.Rename","FS.Remove","FS.Put","FS.Get","FS.ListExt","FS.List","Config.Save","Config.Set","Config.Get","Sys.SetDebug","Sys.GetInfo","Sys.Reboot","RPC.Ping","RPC.Describe","RPC.List"]

FS.ListExt list filenames w/ Ext and see the PEM / CERT files name": "aws-esp32_BC7xxx.crt.pem ..
would these be the certs in question? If in the theoretical software world Yes then possible command to del files and or command to reset be it revert snapshot or other options... no idea if this is a waste of time or if the developers have insight. I got "this far" w/o any "knowing's" and rather than continuation of possibly the unknown ask if within the RPC commands a set of instructions could be provided to remove offending certs and or resetting the original board config? Has this option been reviewed asked to the software dev teams?

Yeah he said they are working on a backened for $30 at a later date. In the meantime i would be without a light. So the boards flashed are the best bet.