The DSR Method (Dutch Synthetic Reefing)

glennf · Jul 11, 2014

danangelo said:
Thank you for sharing your knowledge I have always wondered not doing a water change and supplement the required or present elements in the seawater that is depleting from consumption or skimming or evaporation. There elements that I was not to sure of how to control your ideas made it somewhat clearer and makes sense now just learning on how to implement it to how it would work according to my own tank is gonna take some trials and error..with my disability I would really like to not have to change water so much..my question is has anyone done this method with natural sea water?..lots of great info thanks again for sharing I have a lot of researching to do now...

Because the base of the method and the DSR calculator is to mix your own salt, all parameters can be manipulated with the same elements to correct imbalances due to consumption or overdosing whatever the reason may be (e.g. calcium reactor gone wild).

no reason for trail and error, because with the help of the calculator all can be calculated exactly, by anybody willing to learn how to do it.
for you this can be a good reason to go without water changes, how it workout for anybody is a matter of many variables and where you put your focus on.

These are my thought on the subject:
Do you want like to take reefing one step futher than the usual anemone with a couple off clownfishes?
Do you hate water changes? (because you have no means and space to do it the easy "automated" way)
Do you like to learn more about the reef dynamics?
Are you struggling to get control over your tank?
If you don't have any problems doing periodic measurements and all above are answered "YES", than you should consider running DSR.

it doesn't matter whether you use synthetic water or NSW to fill your tank, you use the calculator to control the essential parameters.

glennf · Jul 11, 2014

mcarroll said:
Likewise. Around US$200 worth of test kits and probably another US$200 or more in reagents would be a massive increase in money and time spent vs what I'm spending on Reef Crystals, RODI filters and Ca, Mg and alk test kits this year...and I was doing daily water changes for a good chunk of time. Spoilage is a cost I worry about: dunno much about any of these reagents suggested yet, but I know all the test kits have expiration dates requiring periodic replacement regardless of usage.

Still, for a reefkeeping system, it looks reasonable and should work if you have enough spare time (and resources)....I see no reason on the surface why it wouldn't. But as a method of saving something (work? money?) vs water changes I'm not sure I see the value yet, unless the physical act of lifting buckets of water is all you seek to avoid (which you will)...but I'll keep reading. Glenn is just getting warmed up!

-Matt

your right Matt, i am just getting warmed up..
i am just curious.
what tank volume do you have?
Can you do a breakdown of the cost you spend one year on you tank ?

glennf · Jul 11, 2014

i missed this one (and a few others i think)

i estimate in holland the cost for maintaining a 500 liter tank is about 150-250 euro for all supplements including Ca,Alk,Mg.
this depends on the growth and population. The test will cost about 160-180 euro most will last 2 years depending on the testing intervals.
You don't need: (because it's already part of the method, so you save money on it)
Alk, Ca, Mg, Sr or any other trace/supplement, Calcium reactor +consumables, GFO, Biopellets, reactors for both biopellets and GFO, extra holding tanks (2) and all related technical appliances for water changes, extra room for holding tanks. Energy lost by Heating of new water and transport for salt bucket and other minor cost.

When doing regular water changed you also needs some above mentioned stuff + test.
in addition you need buckets with Salt

just do the math and you will see that in some cases it will turn out to be beneficial do the one or the other.
The larger the tank the more you will benefit from the money invested into the test, being the same for all system volumes.

mcarroll said:
Interesting. I know at least one dealer about 5-7 years ago that was selling a very similar set of Brightwell supplements for a husbandry system that must have been at least a bit like this.

However, it seems like one trades the cost (and simplicity) of water changes for the cost of test kits and additional supplements though.

Any idea of the costs over a period of time like a year for a system full of large/fast-groing stony colonies?

I'm already thinking that's >$200 worth of test kits - all with expiration dates. That's a lot of salt - with virtually no expiration.

How about supplement costs though? Suggested sources for DIY reagents?

-Matt

glennf · Jul 11, 2014

mcarroll said:
Likewise. Around US$200 worth of test kits and probably another US$200 or more in reagents would be a massive increase in money and time spent vs what I'm spending on Reef Crystals, RODI filters and Ca, Mg and alk test kits this year...and I was doing daily water changes for a good chunk of time. Spoilage is a cost I worry about: dunno much about any of these reagents suggested yet, but I know all the test kits have expiration dates requiring periodic replacement regardless of usage.
look at this posting : https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/re...thod-dutch-synthetic-reefing.html#post1937863

Still, for a reefkeeping system, it looks reasonable and should work if you have enough spare time (and resources)....I see no reason on the surface why it wouldn't. But as a method of saving something (work? money?) vs water changes I'm not sure I see the value yet, unless the physical act of lifting buckets of water is all you seek to avoid (which you will)...but I'll keep reading. Glenn is just getting warmed up!

i spend a lot less time measuring and correcting than you would believe it would take to keep up the levels.
KH, Ca, PO4 once a week - 5-10 minutes
Mg, K, Sr, B, No3, Fe, I once every 2-4 week (depends on stability) averaged at 30 minutes a week. I don't do all test at the same time, unless i suspect irregularity.
some test are being done by people that do wc also, so you only have to account for the extra test people normally won't do.

-Matt

grtz

GlennF

glennf · Jul 11, 2014

Antnee said:
Tagging along for the ride.

thanks for the support

glennf · Jul 11, 2014

reefwiser said:
Matt what I like is that it ties together the additives and testing. Showing you what and how much to use. You see so many post's of hobbyist not knowing what is goingon with a test result and what they should do about.
including myself, before i took control and educated myself

The Salifert kits have a two year expiration if stores and used properly. As for as money and time look at all work put into water changes and the time to do them properly.
People spend a lot of time and money or auto water change systems. An then you have the loss of coral from improper water conditions to factor in. That is a a lot of cost in money and coral lives. I have used a complete LaMotte test kit system for years now. lamotte.htm so testing is something that I am very use to doing.
it's either spending money on an extra room, extra holding tanks and pumps/appliances or messing around with the buckets, if you don't have the luxury of before mentioned.
Don't forget about all mistakes with salt batches with of key values and salinity meters which go bad when measuring new batches.

grtz

glennf · Jul 11, 2014

Squamosa said:
If Glenn uses simple tests such as Salifert then they are good enough for me, I suppose.
it's good enough for the purpose we use it for.
The coral don't really care weather you measure Ca 420ppm of 440ppm. if you stay clear of 390 and 480 you are fine. Most test i selected stay within reasonable margins, so you don't need lab grade test unless you are "mr. precise" and love to spend money on things which are not really necessary .

However, I would feel more comfortable with using a lab grade colorimeter i.e. Lamotte or Macherey-Nagel, but these would set me back upwards of AU$1000. I say more comfortable because it seems that a high percentage of forum posts deal with test kits and their lack of accuracy, even Glenn commented on the fact that there are batch faults with some tests or reagents.
There is way in DSR to deal with this. Because of the precise dosing you can cross check your your test for accuracy.

Glenn, are there clear links to:

The different brands of test kits used by yourself?

Chemical powders or store bought solutions used other than NaHCO_3,CaCl, MgCl?

The concentrations of solutions made especially those of the minor trace elements (excluding NaHCO_3,CaCl, MgCl as these are already in the calculator)

Mixing ratios of VS carbon source?

What 'sugar' are you using? (Glucose e.t.c.)

Do you add any other elements to your system other than those mentioned in the calculating spreadsheet? Salt mixes such as Red Sea claim to have '52 elements in their salt mixes.

I have access to lab grade reagents and can order the chemicals I need.

I would like to begin by doing water changes with my own made up salt water, seeing if there are noticeable results and then progressing to the full DSR method.

I know there are many questions, but research is the key

Cheers,
Tony

grtz

mcarroll · Jul 12, 2014

glennf said:
your right Matt, i am just getting warmed up..
i am just curious.
what tank volume do you have?
Can you do a breakdown of the cost you spend one year on you tank ?

Hm...I never have broken down how much this all costs, and things have been in relateively heavy flux the last few years, but I think I can give some interesting numbers. (Help me if I forget anything.)

100 gallons, across two display tanks and a sump.

Power
Around $60/year in lighting.
Around $75/year in always-on appliances like the skimmer and return pumps.

No idea how to estimate things like heaters and ATO pumps that are on infrequently....someday I'll hook the whole system up to the KillAWatt meter and accumulate stats for a 24 hour period, but sadly not today.

Salt
Over the long term, I have wide-ranging water change habits depending on the needs of the tank. I may have gone through as much as a box of salt every month or two at the peak of my Water Change A Day "refresh" on my system. That would be $300-$600/year, but was more of a targeted treatment than an ongoing regime. (Though I probably would have tried continuing as long as budget allowed had I not run out of time to keep it up....and more or less gotten all the results I was looking for.)

However, I've done practically no water changes for much longer than I've done extremely intensive water changes like that. One box of salt ($49) can last me a year or more, and has in the past.

Supplements
I purchased a bucket of reasonably pure (known purity) calcium chloride driveway salt for $19 around three years ago form a wholesale club, and it's 50% gone. I also dump generous quantities on the driveway during icy weather, so this is a shared resource. Maybe $1-$2/year?

Baking Soda is my other main expense...hard to estimate cuz I've never tracked it though, and it seems like I buy a different size package every time I buy it since I'm not a wholesale club member anymore. I'm thinking maybe a 1 pound box per month would be a reasonable guess, so $12/year

Test Kits
I maintain three Salifert Kits - calcium, magnesium and alkalinity - generally replaced when they expire, but calcium and alk are usually pretty close to empty. My calcium and alk have expiration dates in 2017 and I've already had them a year or so. My Mg is currently expired, so I'm not sure what the length of time before expiration is on a spanking-new magnesium kit. So I'm guessing around $10/year when averaged out? (($20 kit / 5-yr expiration) * 3 kits) I don't think I really pay $20/kit for these three, but it makes easy math.

Analysis
So a few scenarios that I've spent some time in, and the generalized cost/year (assuming everything I got wrong, left out, and forgot)

:

Practically no water changes. Around $200/year.
Intensive, daily water changes. Between $460-$760/year...would need to do a bit of bank statement research to pin down the actual number.
Regular, weekly 20% water changes. I'd have to guess based on the above estimates...around $300/year. Again, some bank statement research could probably help get an actual number.

FWIW, I definitely agree that the larger the system, the more DSR could makes sense. It's benefits grow, or the costs of water changes increase depending on your POV.

-Matt

Jetbobsled · Jul 12, 2014

Thank You SOOOO much for sharing all your methods Glenn!

Your calculator provides a great guide - as I've always been uncomfortable "blindly-dosing" to get my parameters in check.

So, again - THANK YOU for sharing your methods and your calculator!!!

glennf · Jul 12, 2014

mcarroll said:
Hm...I never have broken down how much this all costs, and things have been in relateively heavy flux the last few years, but I think I can give some interesting numbers. (Help me if I forget anything.)

100 gallons, across two display tanks and a sump.

Power
Around $60/year in lighting.
Around $75/year in always-on appliances like the skimmer and return pumps.

No idea how to estimate things like heaters and ATO pumps that are on infrequently....someday I'll hook the whole system up to the KillAWatt meter and accumulate stats for a 24 hour period, but sadly not today.

Salt
Over the long term, I have wide-ranging water change habits depending on the needs of the tank. I may have gone through as much as a box of salt every month or two at the peak of my Water Change A Day "refresh" on my system. That would be $300-$600/year, but was more of a targeted treatment than an ongoing regime. (Though I probably would have tried continuing as long as budget allowed had I not run out of time to keep it up....and more or less gotten all the results I was looking for.)

However, I've done practically no water changes for much longer than I've done extremely intensive water changes like that. One box of salt ($49) can last me a year or more, and has in the past.

Supplements
I purchased a bucket of reasonably pure (known purity) calcium chloride driveway salt for $19 around three years ago form a wholesale club, and it's 50% gone. I also dump generous quantities on the driveway during icy weather, so this is a shared resource. Maybe $1-$2/year?

Baking Soda is my other main expense...hard to estimate cuz I've never tracked it though, and it seems like I buy a different size package every time I buy it since I'm not a wholesale club member anymore. I'm thinking maybe a 1 pound box per month would be a reasonable guess, so $12/year

Test Kits
I maintain three Salifert Kits - calcium, magnesium and alkalinity - generally replaced when they expire, but calcium and alk are usually pretty close to empty. My calcium and alk have expiration dates in 2017 and I've already had them a year or so. My Mg is currently expired, so I'm not sure what the length of time before expiration is on a spanking-new magnesium kit. So I'm guessing around $10/year when averaged out? (($20 kit / 5-yr expiration) * 3 kits) I don't think I really pay $20/kit for these three, but it makes easy math.

Analysis
So a few scenarios that I've spent some time in, and the generalized cost/year (assuming everything I got wrong, left out, and forgot) :

Practically no water changes. Around $200/year.

Intensive, daily water changes. Between $460-$760/year...would need to do a bit of bank statement research to pin down the actual number.

Regular, weekly 20% water changes. I'd have to guess based on the above estimates...around $300/year. Again, some bank statement research could probably help get an actual number.

FWIW, I definitely agree that the larger the system, the more DSR could makes sense. It's benefits grow, or the costs of water changes increase depending on your POV.

-Matt

Thanks for your thoughts Matt
You see i give you something to think about.
Most people go on autopilot and don't think about the money they spend, let alone what they spend it on, untill they pull the plug because i has gotten out of hand.

In holland the main cost for maintaining my tanks is electricity.
I estimate i use about 4 euro a day for all tanks together (1700liter) = 1460 euro.
The other cost are the supplements and tests i use which will cost about max. 350-600 euro retail price. The larger the tank the cheaper the method is, because the initial purchase of some supplements and test is same for most volumes.

If i would have done wc, a 10% /week would be recommended.
A bucket of reef crystal cost 69 euro here. This is good for 600 liters.
My weekly change would have been 170 liters. So on yearly base i would need 14,7 buckets . This would match 1014,= euro only for salt needed for wc.
This is excluding biopellets, gfo, alk and other cconsumables and supplements.

mcarroll · Jul 12, 2014

mcarroll said:
[...]

Practically no water changes. Around $200/year. (146 Euro/year)

Intensive, daily water changes. Between $460-$760/year (338-558 Euro/year)...would need to do a bit of bank statement research to pin down the actual number.

Regular, weekly 20% water changes. I'd have to guess based on the above estimates...around $300/year. (220 Euro/year) Again, some bank statement research could probably help get an actual number.

Added Euros for easier comparison with Glenn's numbers.

FWIW, I have no GFO, carbon, calcium reeactor, etc, etc....so this is pretty much it for my costs.

Because my numbers may be a bit more all-inclusive in that regard, you'll have to figure in your yearly GFO/carbon/etc costs if you want to compare your own yearly numbers with these numbers.

-Matt

mcarroll · Jul 13, 2014

Hooked the whole system up to my KillAWatt 4400 (the usual basic model) just now, so I'll have some hard power numbers for the system-level at least.

Will update my tank thread and just put a link here where it's ready.

FWIW, I didn't arrive at this composition of system, level of efficiency, et al., accidentally or without considering power use and all the other factors in play, as you could surmise from my sig and posting history, just because I haven't assessed system-side power needs before - I think this goes for a lot of people...try searching for "waterblaster pump" and you'll find a whole sect of power-efficiency freaks (not me), most of whom have never taken an accumulated, 24 hour reading like this. (It's usually not that easy, maybe impossible for larger systems. Some folks do at least have an amp reading from their controller systems though, and can chart that. Almost as good.)

However, I can understand why assessing power use in this way would be so critical at the cost you're paying for power! And still, it will be interesting to see this number for my system - it's 50% of the reason I got the KillAWatt in the first place.

I'll be paying more for power (and probably water) someday too!

(You can find my/anyone's past threads and posts by clicking on their username too, btw.)

-Matt

Eienna · Jul 14, 2014

Still doesn't tell me exactly what form of iron it is :/

Eienna · Jul 14, 2014

Thing is, I'm considering using what I already have, but I'm not sure it's safe for reefs. It's made for planted aquariums.

mcarroll · Jul 14, 2014

Chances are that's chelated - not the right thing. Will see if anyone else thinks othewise. (What's the product you're using, or what's the chemical in it?)

-Matt

mcarroll · Jul 14, 2014

From my system thread:

26 hours later, I've clocked 7.49 kWh.

I think that places me at about $0.82 (â‚¬0.59) per day in power usage, on average. That's about $299 (â‚¬219) per year.

-Matt

reefwiser · Jul 15, 2014

Eienna said:
Thing is, I'm considering using what I already have, but I'm not sure it's safe for reefs. It's made for planted aquariums.

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Iron In A Reef Tank ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

glennf · Jul 16, 2014

The past few days free time was very scarce ( i need to find time to look into the many replies and see i can make some sense from it)

But here is something to read.

Publication on Advanced Aquarist:
GlennF's 1500 liter reef using his "DSR Method" ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

Tanne Hoffs publication on reef builders, this triggered them to close my thread on RC (i think)
Glenn Fong reefs his own way; the ?Dutch Synthetic Reef Method?

glennf · Jul 17, 2014

here is some help on problem solving:

How to get rid of algae.
when the cleaning crew can not get into the tight holes and corners, you can help them. Bij manually eliminating the algae.
i use a mixture of 5-10% NaOH solution
dissolve 10gram of NaOH (Caustic Soda) into 100ml of Osmosis Water.

shut down all streamers
use a 1ml injection needle to dose it into the algae, let it work for 10 minutes .
than turn on the streamer again.
work clean and precise, don't waste it on corals, because they will be affected by it.

don't use more than 1ml per 100 liter per day.
when using this, be sure to watch you PH level it will rise a little.

the tools

the threatment

the result after a few days

glennf · Jul 17, 2014

Erythropodium caribaeorum can be controlled by injecting 10% Caustic Soda solution under the surface.

here the ricordea is clearly being irritated by the caribaeorum

Result after 3 days

the ricordea is much happier.