Let's talk phosphate levels

[Miami Reef]

Very cool thread! It’s very interesting seeing all these perspectives.

 

[Stevorino]

I don't think I've ever gotten up to 0.5.... definitely gotten into the .3's though when corals were thriving and I was letting the tank just do it's thing.

Whenever I have noticed phos being high and decided to reduce, my action wasn't driven due to coral health but rather algae/pest issues that started to present themselves.

I have dropped phosphate more than .15 over a few days, but I can't definitively say that coral health was impacted.

 

[aquadise]

My phosphate used to be at 0-0.0x ppm for 4-5 months from the beginning. I started with dry rock. I have bio-media (ceramic cubes, and Sera Siporax) in sump. At the month 6th, phosphate started climbing up and up. I don't change anything much, keep same number of fishes, same diet...

So I supposed my rockworks absorbed the phosphate all those months until they are full and started releasing phosphate back to the tank.

Phosphate climb from 0 --> 0.1 --> 0.2....--> 0.5 ppm. So I started to add quite a lot of GFO, and Aluminium based media to absorb phosphate. After 3 months, phosphate go back to rate 0 - 0.1.

I reduce the above media volume. And now use in parallel with a refugium.

During above change of phosphate, I feel no improvement for my corals. I meant,
- the corals thrive good are still good. Like my montipora, anacropora, stylophora, digitata, and the electric green staghorn.
- The corals with less polyp extension still the same, they don't improve. Like my every acorporas, except the electric green staghorn species.

Pictures below. I don't know which things I should change to make my acroporas doing good.

Some of my conclusion and questions to be discussed:

1/ When I read the instruction of Rowaphos, they advise using Rowaphos from the beginning, despite the phosphate rate maybe low. This is for the Rowaphos to compete with rockworks to absorb the phosphate. If we don't use any media at all, at a certain time, the tank will perform like mine, phosphate climb up. Maybe the tank will be crashed. I think this statement of Rowaphos turn out to be true, according to my personal experience.

2/ Along with above opinion, when I read the instruction of to many biomedia companies (I meant media to store microbacterial, like ceramic brick, pumice based medias,...), they advise to change medias every 6 months... Does it because, they are scare of the above condition happened? When users see the phosphate climb up, maybe they will think the medias are not good...

So, maybe there are no microbacterial that can absorb phosphate at all? It is just the rocks or medias absorb the phosphate.

3/ So, do you think I should remove all of biomedia in my sumps. At the beginning maybe they are good because the less of coral in the tank, so we need something to use the nutrients. But when the tank is mature, coral now use efficiently the nutrition, maybe I don't need those biomedia. I feel like they just keep the phosphate inside and cause bad to the tank.

 

[mchans]

Should there be a Richard Ross 2 ppm option

Mine have held steady at 1. No negative effects noticed.

 

[asome_one]

In my small reef of 15 gallons I deal with a lot of rapidly fluctuating values. Over the past 3 months phosphate has been rapidly increasing to a high of over .9. Noticed effects on all corals LPS being the most pronounced but even on the hardy zoas. Vast improvements were noted within a week of utilizing lanthanum chloride to swing things downward. Better coloration and extension were apparent.

 

[Pod_01]

3/ So, do you think I should remove all of biomedia in my sumps.

Nice reef tank, lot of fish…
FWIW I would not be changing anything.

But, if you decide to remove the biomedia, I would remove a bit and observe for a month. Rinse and repeat…

While back I cleaned up my sump, because it collected lot of bits (I only use skimmer) and I read that the decay etc… impacts pH. Once I cleaned it up corals were really unhappy, I swear the stuff acted like a buffer or something.

Good luck,

 

[wickedxreef]

I struggled for a few years when I started out getting things, especially SPS to grow well. id find as time went on the problem got worse. ICP tests showed params where all good so I was at a bit of a loss. tank was clean with no algae etc but nutrient levels where high. it wasn't until I reduced my nutrient levels down and got phosphates under control did I get any results with SPS and my LPS rocked on also. it was a real turning point understanding keeping free phosphates low and stable is as important as KH for good growth.

I think it was Lou from TM that made the lightbulb go off for me when he was talking about carbon dosing and how phosphate is usable

Do you have the link to this article or video of Lou talking about carbon dosing and phosphate? Was he saying using carbon dosing helped?

 

[rishma]

This thread reminds me that there are likely no absolutes in many of these parameters, and I think concentrations that work well likely depend on lots of other things.

In the old old days of Walt smith Fiji rock, 400w halides and 12 dKH I didn’t know what my phosphate levels really were but they were likely very high. Keeping things alive was success, getting them to grow was expertise. I was an expert! And, as it turns out, I knew very little.

 

[Curiousbranching]

I’ve noticed that phosphate levels in my tank tend to align with PAR intensity and KH levels, so I usually adjust all three together. My corals don’t really care much about nitrate or phosphate levels as long as I don’t mess with them too much. I dose nitrogen in the form of ammonium and phosphate as a Na3PO4 solution daily to replenish what the tank consumes. As long as NP levels don’t swing too much, even if phosphate is barely measurable, it’s not a big deal.


Earlier this year, I made a rookie mistake by using old sand from a friend’s tank. That caused my phosphate to spike from 0.08 to some off-the-charts level that my Hanna URL ppb tester couldn’t even measure. Almost immediately, my corals lost their polyp extension and stopped glowing. A few days later, some Acropora and Stylophora started showing STN. I ended up using lanthanum to bring phosphate back down, but honestly, I’m not a fan of it. It’s hard to control the dosage accurately. For instance, I tried to dose just enough to reduce phosphate by 0.02–0.03 ppm, but when I tested a few hours later, nothing had changed. Then the next day, phosphate finally dropped—but not by the amount I calculated!


I still don’t fully understand how sudden phosphate changes affect corals. Can someone crack this mystery for me?

 

[VintageReefer]

I’ve noticed that phosphate levels in my tank tend to align with PAR intensity and KH levels, so I usually adjust all three together. My corals don’t really care much about nitrate or phosphate levels as long as I don’t mess with them too much. I dose nitrogen in the form of ammonium and phosphate as a Na3PO4 solution daily to replenish what the tank consumes. As long as NP levels don’t swing too much, even if phosphate is barely measurable, it’s not a big deal.


Earlier this year, I made a rookie mistake by using old sand from a friend’s tank. That caused my phosphate to spike from 0.08 to some off-the-charts level that my Hanna URL ppb tester couldn’t even measure. Almost immediately, my corals lost their polyp extension and stopped glowing. A few days later, some Acropora and Stylophora started showing STN. I ended up using lanthanum to bring phosphate back down, but honestly, I’m not a fan of it. It’s hard to control the dosage accurately. For instance, I tried to dose just enough to reduce phosphate by 0.02–0.03 ppm, but when I tested a few hours later, nothing had changed. Then the next day, phosphate finally dropped—but not by the amount I calculated!


I still don’t fully understand how sudden phosphate changes affect corals. Can someone crack this mystery for me?

I don’t understand how my tank went from a range of undetectable to .05 for over a year, and a week of using a plank auto feeder 3x a day + two doses of a coral feed spiked me to .96. And months have gone by and the best I can stabilize at is .45-.5

And regardless of .05 or .5 my corals are healthy and colorful

 

[aquadise]

I don’t understand how my tank went from a range of undetectable to .05 for over a year, and a week of using a plank auto feeder 3x a day + two doses of a coral feed spiked me to .96. And months have gone by and the best I can stabilize at is .45-.5

And regardless of .05 or .5 my corals are healthy and colorful

Probably you were at same stage as I described in my above post.

 

[Curiousbranching]

I don’t understand how my tank went from a range of undetectable to .05 for over a year, and a week of using a plank auto feeder 3x a day + two doses of a coral feed spiked me to .96. And months have gone by and the best I can stabilize at is .45-.5

And regardless of .05 or .5 my corals are healthy and colorful

I read somewhere that phosphate comes from the preservatives in pellet food quite a bit. Maybe that’s what happened in your case?

 

[VintageReefer]

Probably you were at same stage as I described in my above post.

Well established system. 10 yr old sand bed. Rock is live rock from Fiji and tonga that I’ve been using 12+ years.

I read somewhere that phosphate comes from the preservatives in pellet food quite a bit. Maybe that’s what happened in your case?

It’s possible. I don’t use pellet on this tank and the plank auto feeder uses freeze dried food - also something I’ve never used.

I always fed the tank frozen food. I stopped the plank that week, went back to regular feedings, and increased my scrubber hours and I’m down to my current .45ish. I can use Phosguard and bring it down more but it goes back up. I can’t believe that a week of new food has caused all my rock to become completely phosphate bound again but that’s my only explanation. It fits the pattern I lower the water, then the rock releases or back and rebalances at .45. It would take a ton of work for me to bring this back down. Im just shocked how fast the rock soaked it up

 

[Doctorgori]

Ive never figured this out as I have 3 tanks:
My 900XXXL runs at .1 -.2 no algae,
I have a 300XL that has issues over .1
I correct with LC dumped into the skimmer neck @50% dosage x 2

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My recent ICP showed i had a 3.6ppm phospate level. Yes, 3.6. I had no idea what my levels where because it kept maxing out all my kits which is why I did the ICP.

I've been using phosban-l for about a week here now, taking it slow. I'm still out of range of my test kits but my corals are starting to perk up and get better polyp extension already.

If my math is right, based on how much I'm dosing, I should be in range of my Hannah tester within the next 1-2 days.

How do you perceive the tank to be, numbers aside?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Some of my conclusion and questions to be discussed:

1/ When I read the instruction of Rowaphos, they advise using Rowaphos from the beginning, despite the phosphate rate maybe low. This is for the Rowaphos to compete with rockworks to absorb the phosphate. If we don't use any media at all, at a certain time, the tank will perform like mine, phosphate climb up. Maybe the tank will be crashed. I think this statement of Rowaphos turn out to be true, according to my personal experience.

2/ Along with above opinion, when I read the instruction of to many biomedia companies (I meant media to store microbacterial, like ceramic brick, pumice based medias,...), they advise to change medias every 6 months... Does it because, they are scare of the above condition happened? When users see the phosphate climb up, maybe they will think the medias are not good...

So, maybe there are no microbacterial that can absorb phosphate at all? It is just the rocks or medias absorb the phosphate.

3/ So, do you think I should remove all of biomedia in my sumps. At the beginning maybe they are good because the less of coral in the tank, so we need something to use the nutrients. But when the tank is mature, coral now use efficiently the nutrition, maybe I don't need those biomedia. I feel like they just keep the phosphate inside and cause bad to the tank.

Bear in mind that phosphate binders can deplete in a day or less if phosphate is high.

Companies want you to use more media of any type, whether it is desirable for your particular tank or not. There's almost no reef aquarium that I would advise to use any type of synthetic biomedia, unless it is like a frag tank with very little to no rock and sand.

Bacterial certainly do take up phosphate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I still don’t fully understand how sudden phosphate changes affect corals. Can someone crack this mystery for me?

I can give my expected rationale, but its an unproven theory.

Like many things in a reef tank, phosphate is taken up by organisms using active transporters. These are proteins in the cell membranes of cells that face the external fluid (or maybe inside of spaces that have free transport of ions with the water). They use energy to pull in phosphate ions one at a time. Even humans have them in their small intestine.

When phosphate is in short supply, organisms can increase the number of transporters to be able to optimize their uptake capacity.

When phosphate is plentiful, they reduce the number of these transporters.

They may also have more than one transporter type, and may change the types as needed.

These changes take time (hours to days), and that normally is not a problem in the ocean where changes are slow.

If a coral has adapted to local conditions as best it can by optimizing its transporters, and then there's a sudden increase or decrease in phosphate, they may not get enough or are force fed too much.

Think of it like a person at a drinking fountain with their mouth open a certain amount. If the water suddenly increases in flow they may gag on the forced water intake. if the flow reduces, the water intake slows greatly.

Too much or too little phosphate inside cells is not a good thing. It can be a big problem in people too.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’ve noticed that phosphate levels in my tank tend to align with PAR intensity and KH levels, so I usually adjust all three together.

Can you explain a bit more what you mean by the first half of that sentence?

 

[Rolliad]

How do you perceive the tank to be, numbers aside?

Fish/Invert(Including BTAs) Health - They couldn't really seem to care less about that phosphate number. They are happy, healthy, fat and growing!

Coral Health - Depends completely on the coral.
-My leather coral is loving life. It's growing and happy as hell.
-My Zoas aren't fans of it being closed about as often as they're open. I'll have sudden polyp death occasionally for no discernable reason.
-Goni's absolutely aren't fans. They all retracted and died within a matter of weeks.
-Torches are about like Zoas. Sometimes they are plump and full and just loving life and other days they are all retracted up. I've had 2 that just died over night a couple of times after being closed up the day before.
-Hammers seem to be able to tolerate it. They're usually puffed up and open and happy. No real growth though that I've seen after many months.
-SPS especially don't seem to be fans of the high phosphate, but I honestly think that has to do slightly more with algae growth than anything else, at least initially. I lost several SPS along the way because algae grew on the frags faster than my CUC/tang could eat it and faster than they could adapt to the phosphate levels. Adding another tang and ironically, some angelfish seem to have resolved this issue. However, the SPS seemed to be mostly just "existing" and not thriving in any way. As I've brought my levels down though, they are definitely perking up and putting their polyps out more into the flow.
-Chalices seem about the same as the hammers now that I've added the extra tang and the angelfish.
-Blastos about the same as above.

Overall, I'd say that I was happy with fish and inverts but I was ***** frustrated by the constant coral issues I was having. At first I thought I just had a bad test kit, but after several tests and brands I just sent off the ICP. While I was waiting on that to come back, I got a second tang and 2 more angelfish which basically put a bandaid on the problem but didn't solve the issues.

When I got my ICP back, aside from Aluminum in the 200s (which I read from you shouldn't be killing my coral), my phosphate was way high so I've been working on bringing that down and that seems to be helping. Right now, I'm just targeting getting below 1.0ppm and then I'm going to pause a bit (a couple of weeks at least) and see where we're at.

Also, I can comment pretty confidently that water changes don't solve phosphate issues. Even vacuuming out the sump, gravel and blowing the rock off with a turkey baster and sucking that out didn't help. I did 10 days straight of 50% water changes to get the aluminum out of my tank after removing my bio-blocks yet my phosphate stayed sky high despite that.

I hope that helps!

 

[JayM]

Where is it now?

Keep us updated!

It bounces around a little. Usually .07 - .1.