A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[MnFish1]

The Swedish saltwater scene is very much smaller than the US market, but I did a check how many disease related threads there was in the Swedish forum during the last 18 months – it was 21. We import from the same sources that you do; we do not have access to the same heavy drugs that you have, and it is not to do chemoprophylactic treatments. Even use of observation QT is rare. Seen during time – ich is the most common disease.

There are some differences – 95 % of the purchases goes via a LFS. We have very strict regulation of transporting vertebrates and no domestic airlines do not transport living animals. The LFS is mostly specialized saltwater shops, hence often enthusiasts making a living from their hobby. We have very strict laws according to consumer rights. Every LFS know that during the first 6 months after the purchase must prove that the fish was not sick (or had other faults) at the moment of purchase. With other words - The burden of proof lies on the one who sold the fish during the first 6 months. The supply chains is often very short – direct import from exporting countries to LFS is rather common.

All this together has led to very responsible wholesalers and LFS. It is very rare you see a sick fish at a LFS. Either wholesalers or LFS use chemoprophylactic treatments. Use of chemoprophylactic treatmens are very rare in the Swedish society overall. One of the LFS I nowadays sometimes buy my life stock from (yes, I buy from other than my friend) has a bad reputation according to saltwater fish a couple of years ago. They conclude that they had a bad supplier and change the supplier to TMC, UK. Before I use to say to them – If I should by from you – I will buy it direct in the bag or wait for 4 months – if it still alive at that time – it will manage everything :) Today – they have very good quality and I buy from them now and then.

A whole other thing. People that have been following me knows that I am a huge fan of using hydrogen peroxide as treatment and that I constantly run a low dosage in my aquaria. Never less – I will rise a warning about using this in prophylactic treatments protocols. Norwegian fish farmers have reporting more resistant population of sea liches after a couple of years use of H2O2. There is indication that not all sea liches die, and that the evolution pressure forward more resistance therefore is high. This seems to contradict my recommendation to use oxydators but I think we have partly the same effect here as with low Cu levels or low ozone management (IMO – the use of low Cu levels in LFS and wholesalers have nothing to do with disease management – it is labour management) The dosage is not high enough to force the evolution in direction of resistant populations (non or very few parasites will be killed and hence their set of genes will not disappear) and in the case of oxydators and low ozone concentrations – the overall health effect with higher oxygen levels and other things will do the environment better for god animal health. The reason why I run the oxydator is because it takes away a lot of the yellow substances in my aquarium with high biological turnover – not primary for disease management. However – I have noted that people with oxydators have lesser or no problems with diseases in the long run. If – I see signs of disease or suspect anything with newcomers – I rise the dosage for a couple of weeks. I will never run without one – at least it gives me more self-confidence that I will manage a healthy fish stock.

With other words – there is no chemical whatever that is number 42!

Sincerely Lasse

Since there are only 25 people in Sweden - 21 threads seems like a lot :):):)

 

[drstardust]

OK, I started doing this when we invented fish. I will wait for you guys, girls, Liberals and Sissy girly people to catch up.
It's not easy being a pioneer is it? :)

I threw in 5 of them already. They are so happy in my tank that they grew large enough to eat my hippo tang. :confused:
Oh dear! You've got some monsters on your hands. Ok, back to the Achilles/PBT idea for the ultimate I told you so [liberals, sissies, girly sissy types] ;)

 

[Lasse]

Since there are only 25 people in Sweden - 21 threads seems like a lot :):):)

all Norwegian reefers too - total 4 I think :) :) :)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

So how do we do better collecting and sharing information on this topic?

I think at the very least we need a sticky on the role of proper feeding if there isn't already on in the nutrition forum.

I would like a sticky on the potential value coral can play in reducing parasite numbers.

Maybe an entire thread on the value of gorgonians?

We could probably use more data on properly stocking a tank. How high of a stocking level is too high, or just how compatible do fish need to be, before it causes too much stress in fish. We could probably put that in the Fish Discussion section.

Or, is their value to try and collect all of this in one forum section? Should we try to create a new forum section based trying to maintain healthy fish without the use of medications? I could see that being of value to many reefers, especially those where the medications aren't even an option.

Thoughts?

 

[drstardust]

So how do we do better collecting and sharing information on this topic?

I think at the very least we need a sticky on the role of proper feeding if there isn't already on in the nutrition forum.

I would like a sticky on the potential value coral can play in reducing parasite numbers.

Maybe an entire thread on the value of gorgonians?

We could probably use more data on properly stocking a tank. How high of a stocking level is too high, or just how compatible do fish need to be, before it causes too much stress in fish. We could probably put that in the Fish Discussion section.

Or, is their value to try and collect all of this in one forum section? Should we try to create a new forum section based trying to maintain healthy fish without the use of medications? I could see that being of value to many reefers, especially those where the medications aren't even an option.

Thoughts?

I think the different threads idea is good, because otherwise info can get lost. We can do a thread in each of the forums like you suggest, with links to the others. That's my thought.

 

[drstardust]

@Brew12 maybe we can start with a nutrition thread/sticky. the reason I suggest that is because this is the one area of common ground for all of us. From Paul B to Humblefish and everyone in between, all of us agree about the importance of good nutrition. No one (who qualifies as a non-moron) would disagree that nutrition is key to good fish health.

 

[MnFish1]

So how do we do better collecting and sharing information on this topic?

I think at the very least we need a sticky on the role of proper feeding if there isn't already on in the nutrition forum.

I would like a sticky on the potential value coral can play in reducing parasite numbers.

Maybe an entire thread on the value of gorgonians?

We could probably use more data on properly stocking a tank. How high of a stocking level is too high, or just how compatible do fish need to be, before it causes too much stress in fish. We could probably put that in the Fish Discussion section.

Or, is their value to try and collect all of this in one forum section? Should we try to create a new forum section based trying to maintain healthy fish without the use of medications? I could see that being of value to many reefers, especially those where the medications aren't even an option.

Thoughts?

Yes to all - I think it would also be nice to have a central repository for scientific articles (Links to them - due to copyright I think its all you can do) or Links with certain passages (immunity to CI, etc) it could be arranged the same way that the regular 'articles' section (the same categories, ie.) making it easier to set up. That way it makes it much easier when some of these things come up every 3 months or so.

 

[Brew12]

@Brew12 maybe we can start with a nutrition thread/sticky. the reason I suggest that is because this is the one area of common ground for all of us. From Paul B to Humblefish and everyone in between, all of us agree about the importance of good nutrition. No one (who qualifies as a non-moron) would disagree that nutrition is key to good fish health.

I don't think everyone needs to agree that something is the best way before we make it a sticky and start working toward it. Obviously, some people don't agree with prophylactic treatment but I would take down the existing stickies becomes someone may disagree.

I'm interested in what is best for the members of R2R. If people think it best to have this information all in one new forum section, I'll see if I can get one created. If people think it is best to have it between 3 or 4 pertinent sections, I'm good with that too.

es to all - I think it would also be nice to have a central repository for scientific articles (Links to them - due to copyright I think its all you can do) or Links with certain passages (immunity to CI, etc) it could be arranged the same way that the regular 'articles' section (the same categories, ie.) making it easier to set up. That way it makes it much easier when some of these things come up every 3 months or so.

I thought that after a period of time, or those fully funded by the government, were part of the public domain and allowed to be posted at will. If it is still under copywrite then yes, links only.

As for arranging them like the articles, I'm not sure the software that runs the forum would be capable of doing that. One reason I do want to start organizing and making some of this stuff stickies is so that it doesn't get rehashed every few months. Let's get the information out there with a running conversation.

 

[MnFish1]

As for arranging them like the articles, I'm not sure the software that runs the forum would be capable of doing that. One reason I do want to start organizing and making some of this stuff stickies is so that it doesn't get rehashed every few months. Let's get the information out there with a running conversation.

If you go to the articles page - you can see they are grouped into categories on the left side (didn't know they were even there) - I was suggesting creating a new 'page' as a copy of the current 'article one' and placing scientific based articles there - But yes I don't know either if the software can do that - or if additional categories on the articles page can be created (ie.Scientific articles related to Fish disease, water chemistry, etc etc)

 

[drstardust]

I don't think everyone needs to agree that something is the best way before we make it a sticky and start working toward it. Obviously, some people don't agree with prophylactic treatment but I would take down the existing stickies becomes someone may disagree.

Well, yeah, of course. However, starting with something everybody agrees is necessary would be appropriate. For instance, I don't know of anyone in denial of the nitrogen cycle, and "how to cycle your tank" is probably one of the first "stickies" that any reef forum would put up. If that makes sense.

 

[Brew12]

If you go to the articles page - you can see they are grouped into categories on the left side (didn't know they were even there) - I was suggesting creating a new 'page' as a copy of the current 'article one' and placing scientific based articles there - But yes I don't know either if the software can do that - or if additional categories on the articles page can be created (ie.Scientific articles related to Fish disease, water chemistry, etc etc)

I'm sure we could turn them into articles and blend them together. I don't know if we can create a new article section just for scientific studies.

 

[Mortie31]

One reason I do want to start organizing and making some of this stuff stickies is so that it doesn't get rehashed every few months

In theory this sounds good, a library of common topics and papers, also a sticky on how to use the search facility would help, however saying that one thing I enjoy most on R2R is the spirited discussions people have and wouldn’t want to see the site turned into a library at the expense of this

 

[MnFish1]

In theory this sounds good, a library of common topics and papers, also a sticky on how to use the search facility would help, however saying that one thing I enjoy most on R2R is the spirited discussions people have and wouldn’t want to see the site turned into a library at the expense of this

I don't think this is ever in danger of happening. But for example - when people say x - and its contrary to an article - I hate having to 're-google' Besides - my guess is that this would also lead to discussion (i.e. post an article link - people will probably discuss that particular article - just like they would discuss the other articles)?

 

[Michael Gilbreath]

lol come on its easy to agree but more fun to disagree and then have to search google for the proof lol. I

 

[Mastiffsrule]

@Brew12 maybe we can start with a nutrition thread/sticky. the reason I suggest that is because this is the one area of common ground for all of us. From Paul B to Humblefish and everyone in between, all of us agree about the importance of good nutrition. No one (who qualifies as a non-moron) would disagree that nutrition is key to good fish health.

I like this, nice. Great point.

Unless I am missing it, where are the major threads on nutrition ? After you get thru Paul’s supermodels and propalatic arkiticles (Paul b’d that up ;)) I have-not seen many thread that draw such passion as QT.

I probable did this already, I am sure. But here is proof no QT and nutrition work.

Pix stink, but this is my 3rd and last guy to shake the ich outbreak I am going thru the last 2 or 3 weeks. Not a single med, no dips, no chips, no nothing. Except— freshly frozen clams, Nori, frozen cubes spirulina brine and mega algae and lots of Zoecon and Selcon.

2 weeks ago, and the today. Edit, and look how fat they are

 

[MaccaPopEye]

I finally caught up haha I've been working the last few days and it seems like every time I wake up or get a spare 5min there is another 3-4 pages to read when I didn't even finish the last one :p but I read every post! There is certainly some interesting things in here.

So how do we do better collecting and sharing information on this topic?

...

Or, is their value to try and collect all of this in one forum section? Should we try to create a new forum section based trying to maintain healthy fish without the use of medications? I could see that being of value to many reefers, especially those where the medications aren't even an option.

Thoughts?

I think a separate forum section is probably the best way to go. There is a lot of info and possible theories to explore, each possible theory could be set up as a separate thread etc. That would hopefully help to keep everything cleaner and easier to read / sift through.

People who do not prophylactically medicate could also each have a thread there. It might be an easier way to actually track how many fish are added or lost and how many disease outbreaks there are in tanks that didn't follow a prophylactic QT method. It may make it easier to see common trends of things that work and things that don't.

And that way there could also be a few important stickies such as:
- Why it might not be a good idea to prophylactically medicate (aka this article)
- Recommended QT practices with no prophylactic medication
- The "best" recommended current method to add fish without medicating
- Importance of nutrition and best foods / home recipes
- Important elements of an "immune" tank (i.e. you can't just start a tank with dry rock and then float & dump 10 fish in 3 months)
- Repository of links to relevant studies
etc.

 

[FlyPenFly]

I have a purple tang and kole tang in my tank who won’t eat nori but they will go bananas for pellets and live worms. So I feed them some herbivore pellets. The new Hikari ones have some kind of probiotic...

I think a sticky in fish nutrition would save a lot of fish lives.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Alright. I am officially riled up. That’s a lot for me. I just read another thread like many before. “You must QT”

Where did this absolute QT required come from?? (Refer to my signature.). I am new and usually the last to stir the pot. Last thing I ever want is someone read my post and think I come off as anything other than caring and transparent. Celebrate positive and no such thing as failures, only opportunities to learn.

That said, the subject of QT is worse than a religious or political war. I have seen too many posts demanding QT is the only way it should be done. Where is the definitive article or research on the position eaither way? I have said in many posts I am bad at disease ID. Not from lack of research, but real world experience. Only thing I knew in the 80’s was ich since that was most prevalent to me.

If I was newer to salt water forums and did not follow QT and had an issue I would feel like I did something so wrong, or worse I am a moron. (That debate on me is still up in the air:) no comments please) I challenge you to go back and re-read some of the must QT posts that have been put up. When you re-read it, pretend you are the poster looking for help. My take away from these posts is... you must QT. How or why did you even put a fish in without QT. Sorry you got a disease, go fallow for 3,ooo,oo1 days. There is no other way and I am not going to offer alternatives.

Please, for the love of the guys and gals we love. Let’s look at how we come off to the newer keepers. How we move right to drugs and dosing. I have yet to see one disease thread that says, do copper but make sure you are addressing his diet to help his ammunition system.

If we always are following, and I have said before, (like basic programming computer years to go) if you always use an IF THEN GO TO approach ...where does innovation come into play see things like c+ programming and on.

That said I feel better, but I would like @Brew12 or even the mighty @Paul B to weigh in. If i overstepped my boundaries I will accept my punishment or privileges being revoked.

Oh, and this is also my longest post. I am no longer riled up. Thanks everyone, inspire the new and support us old. Keep peace alive

 

[FlyPenFly]

If I can, I QT so fatten up and Destress a fish before it goes into the aggressive display tank. I did this recently with a COpperband so he had some hope of being able to catch some food when it enters the tank.

 

[rkpetersen]

Oh, and this is also my longest post. I am no longer riled up. Thanks everyone, inspire the new and support us old. Keep peace alive

It's ok.
QT done wrong kills a lot of fish. And most of us have done it wrong because there are so many ways to screw up.
Done right, it's miraculous at protecting your display aquaria from disease. Simple but true.
It's not like we don't do the same thing with humans. The first 3 Apollo astronauts to return from the moon spent 3 weeks in QT.
(I don't think they used any medications or drugs on them during that time, but I could be mistaken!)
If someone is willing to deal with the possibility of disease in their display, fine, they shouldn't QT.
It may burn itself out, whatever gets through. Maybe nothing will ever get through.
Only some of your fish might die. Perhaps even none. Or, you might lose 90%.
I'm not really a gambler.