A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[drstardust]

This is why I broke down my first large post on page 13 into the different options I laid out.
We basically have 3 possibilities on what people are willing to do with their fish, corals, inverts, etc. For the purpose of my post, I'm going to focus on fish though...

Option 1.
No QT, no observation, no dip, just straight in the tank after acclimation (float for temp, drip, etc).

Option 2.
Dip before going into the tank. Dip in either fresh water, a methylene blue, formalin, Rally, Hydroplex, Safety Stop, etc.

Option 3.
QT. The option most readily accepted as the best. This is what all (or almost all) of us believe one should do. But... what does QT mean exactly?

I really do think we need to look at the 4 different styles of QT I listed and discuss the pros and cons of each, and explore different ways to make each more effective. Consider making the following 4 terms common place when discuss QT options.


QT Option 1. OBSERVATION ONLY QT.
Observation only QT. If no diseases or other problems show, then the fish is released into the display after 2-6 weeks. Treatments are only done as needed. Treatments end up being disease specific, and most likely one of the 3 below.


For QT Options 2, 3, & 4 deciding on if to prophylactically treat immediately or after a 1-2 week resting period I think is also important.

QT Option 2. PROPHYLACTIC QT WITH ZERO MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH ZERO MEDS, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

Possible treatment options:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips/baths
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.

This is all based on the premise of outrunning the parasites known life cycles, and killing/harming them with the fresh water dips. Should theoretically work for Ich, Velvet, and most likely also Flukes, Brook, Black Ich and possibly more (Uronema marinum & other protozoa).

If Uronema marinum, Fungi, bacteria, other protozoa, Flukes, Internal parasites, and/or intestinal worms become an issue then the usage of meds such as those listed in QT Option 3 and QT Option 4 become needed.


QT Option 3. PROPHYLACTIC QT WITH NON-TOXIC/MILD MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH Non-Toxic/Mild MEDS and other remedies, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

I say non-toxic/mild meds and other remedies because the ones listed to my knowledge aren't carcinogenic, poisonous, don't cause feeding issues, or known to harm the immune system.

Possible treatment options:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.
-H2O2
-Methylene Blue
-Antiseptics (like Acriflavine, such as Ruby Reef Rally)
-Probiotics
-Vitamins
-Herbal Remedies

Again, is all based on the premise of outrunning the parasites known life cycles, and killing/harming them with the fresh water dips and/or mild meds and other remedies. Should theoretically work for Ich, Velvet, and most likely also Flukes, Brook, Black Ich, Fungi, bacteria, and possibly more (Uronema marinum & other protozoa).

The mild meds such as Acriflavine, H2O2, Methylene Blue, and possible others would help work against those 5 parasites plus some other issues like Fungi, bacteria, other protozoa, and possibly helping for Uronema marinum.

If Flukes, Internal parasites, bacterial issues, Uronema marinum, other protozoa, and/or intestinal worms become an issue that can't be treated with mild meds, probiotics, good diet, low stress, and/or heal on their own from the fishes immune system then the usage of toxic meds become an option for treatment. This is obviously a last resort option.


QT Option 4. PROPHYLACTIC QT TOXIC MEDS.
Prophylactically treating everything in QT WITH TOXIC MEDS, regardless of if they appear healthy or not with. Prophylactic Treatment can be either immediate or after a short resting period.

I say toxic meds because the ones listed to my knowledge are either carcinogenic, poisonous, known to cause feeding issues, or known to harm the immune system.

TOXIC treatment options:
-Copper
-CP
-Praziquantel
-Metronidazole
-Formalin
-AntiBiotics
-Other meds (some may require a prescription)

Non-Toxic treatment options that can be combined with above if desired:
-TTM
-Fresh Water Dips
-Daily Siphoning via small water changes (Anthony Calfo method, and similar to fishery method)
-Daily Siphoning via large (50%) water changes (Steven Pro method)
-Micro Filtration: DE Filter, RO Sediment Filters, etc.
-H2O2
-Methylene Blue
-Antiseptics (like Acriflavine, such as Ruby Reef Rally)
-Probiotics
-Vitamins
-Herbal Remedies

Copper, CP, Praziquantel, Metronidazole, Formalin, and even possibly Antibiotics are used in some combo prophylactically and done to ensure totally elimination of any/all parasites and diseases.

This option does have the potential issues mentioned so far in this thread, such as damaged immune system, carcinogenic, poisonous, feeding problems, possible disease resistance to meds, and potentially others.

Again... to me, QT Option 4 is what is currently most often used and suggested.


QT Options 2 & 3 are my personal favorites, and what I'm most comfortable doing in my own home with my tanks.

What we can start doing, if we can get a large enough group of willing participants together, is have different groups of us try the different options and compare results. Obviously this isn't nearly as rigorous as an actual scientific study, but it could at least provide some insight into these choices.

 

[drstardust]

Lots of testing is going on with hydrogen peroxide, stay tuned for that!

+1. Even I'll be testing soon!!

 

[drstardust]

Seriousely!!. Hello there Ford. Nice that you joined. :D

By the way, I added a hippo tang and box fish. I realize a hippo tang is a very easy, beginner fish, but still considered by many as an ich magnet. Box fish invented ich and they are more prone to it than tangs. :p

Want to truly impress us, Paul? Throw in a black molly :p

 

[drstardust]

Qt works, prove me wrong

Wong! That cosmic flowerhorn at the bottom totally has flukes! :D

 

[ngoodermuth]

Wong! That cosmic flowerhorn at the bottom totally has flukes! :D

I think they look more like ich spots [emoji12]

 

[drstardust]

I think they look more like ich spots [emoji12]

I think it's both. Total QT failure! :P

 

[HomeSlizzice]

What we can start doing, if we can get a large enough group of willing participants together, is have different groups of us try the different options and compare results. Obviously this isn't nearly as rigorous as an actual scientific study, but it could at least provide some insight into these choices.

I think that’s a great idea.

I’m going to be running a modified version of the TTM method I came up with, essentially running my version of QT Option 3, non-toxic/mild meds prophylactic QT. TTM with transfers every 24-46 hours, some fresh water dips, and some medicated baths with either Ruby Reef Rally or Methylene Blue depending on the day.

 

[Lasse]

The Swedish saltwater scene is very much smaller than the US market, but I did a check how many disease related threads there was in the Swedish forum during the last 18 months – it was 21. We import from the same sources that you do; we do not have access to the same heavy drugs that you have, and it is not to do chemoprophylactic treatments. Even use of observation QT is rare. Seen during time – ich is the most common disease.

There are some differences – 95 % of the purchases goes via a LFS. We have very strict regulation of transporting vertebrates and no domestic airlines do not transport living animals. The LFS is mostly specialized saltwater shops, hence often enthusiasts making a living from their hobby. We have very strict laws according to consumer rights. Every LFS know that during the first 6 months after the purchase must prove that the fish was not sick (or had other faults) at the moment of purchase. With other words - The burden of proof lies on the one who sold the fish during the first 6 months. The supply chains is often very short – direct import from exporting countries to LFS is rather common.

All this together has led to very responsible wholesalers and LFS. It is very rare you see a sick fish at a LFS. Either wholesalers or LFS use chemoprophylactic treatments. Use of chemoprophylactic treatmens are very rare in the Swedish society overall. One of the LFS I nowadays sometimes buy my life stock from (yes, I buy from other than my friend) has a bad reputation according to saltwater fish a couple of years ago. They conclude that they had a bad supplier and change the supplier to TMC, UK. Before I use to say to them – If I should by from you – I will buy it direct in the bag or wait for 4 months – if it still alive at that time – it will manage everything :) Today – they have very good quality and I buy from them now and then.

A whole other thing. People that have been following me knows that I am a huge fan of using hydrogen peroxide as treatment and that I constantly run a low dosage in my aquaria. Never less – I will rise a warning about using this in prophylactic treatments protocols. Norwegian fish farmers have reporting more resistant population of sea liches after a couple of years use of H2O2. There is indication that not all sea liches die, and that the evolution pressure forward more resistance therefore is high. This seems to contradict my recommendation to use oxydators but I think we have partly the same effect here as with low Cu levels or low ozone management (IMO – the use of low Cu levels in LFS and wholesalers have nothing to do with disease management – it is labour management) The dosage is not high enough to force the evolution in direction of resistant populations (non or very few parasites will be killed and hence their set of genes will not disappear) and in the case of oxydators and low ozone concentrations – the overall health effect with higher oxygen levels and other things will do the environment better for god animal health. The reason why I run the oxydator is because it takes away a lot of the yellow substances in my aquarium with high biological turnover – not primary for disease management. However – I have noted that people with oxydators have lesser or no problems with diseases in the long run. If – I see signs of disease or suspect anything with newcomers – I rise the dosage for a couple of weeks. I will never run without one – at least it gives me more self-confidence that I will manage a healthy fish stock.

With other words – there is no chemical whatever that is number 42!

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sallstrom]

@Lasse What are your thoughts on using ozone? I'm a bit surprised that ozone wasn't mentioned until now.
We're using ozone now and then, but together with other types of filters, so I can't say much about their effectiveness.

And thank you @Brew12 for a great article and discussion!

 

[atoll]

I just ordered one, but not for disease control per say. More for general aquarium health.

With it coming I decided to recalibrate my probes. Of course, with my recent luck, I broke my ORP probe which is what would give me the best indication if the Oxydator is working properly. New probe on order.

I never thought about my Oxydator as assisting in disease control when I first started using them about 30 years ago. In fact I wasn't even sure or at least thought what real benefits it would bring. Regarding ORP and using Oxydator's as I have said in a previous post IME when using higher concentrations of peroxide it seems to interfere with the workings of the prob and can show a negative ORP reading. At lower peroxide concentrations this does not seem to be the case.

 

[atoll]

With regards to water movement. I have a lot and I mean a LOT. I have 2 x maxspect gyre 230s and 2 x MP40s none are on full of course but still turn up quite high. I am a big believer in not just high flow (I do keep a lot of SPS but am still sticking my Reefer250. I was given a lot of LPS frags namely Acans however) but also dialing in the correct flow. I doubt the light loving gorginian on the right could extend its polyps any further without them popping out.

 

[Paul B]

What, ive been doing this for almost five years. I know everything grandpa.

I have hermit crabs with Canker sores older than you. And I am a Grand Pa twice so far. :cool:

What we can start doing, if we can get a large enough group of willing participants together, is have different groups of us try the different options and compare results

OK, I started doing this when we invented fish. I will wait for you guys, girls, Liberals and Sissy girly people to catch up.

Throw in a black molly :p

I threw in 5 of them already. They are so happy in my tank that they grew large enough to eat my hippo tang. :confused:

With regards to water movement. I have a lot and I mean a LOT. I have 2 x maxspect gyre 230s and 2 x MP40s none are on full of course but still turn up quite high.

I don't know what gyre 230 or MP40s are but my pumps are so old they are built out of wood and the nails that held on the name plate rusted off so I am not sure how much they pump. But I am sure their names were real names made out of words and not silly numbers like MP367, or Dr 163. They had real names like "Big Powerhead" or just "Motor for water" and they were made by "Christopher Columbus Pump Company Ltd." :rolleyes:

I live in this lighthouse and I accidently dropped one out the window. This is what happened. That's me there trying to unplug the thing. :eek:

 

[atoll]

Gr my post should read 2 x gyre 130s not 230s. I have builders fingers and bite my nails so they are more like a hammer face.

 

[atoll]

A short video showing my pumps and water flow.

https://www.woodblocx.co.uk/raised-...2gt9jN8R_xNTPVuqx91DCTg0GFANluxsaAgHVEALw_wcB

Not sure how the ad got in there and I can't find an edit button on here if there is can somebody point it out for me. Thanks.

 

[Paul B]

Gr my post should read 2 x gyre 130s not 230s. I have builders fingers and bite my nails so they are more like a hammer face.

OK, that clears it up immensely. I was very confused. :cool:

I can start that new thread with the people who quarantine and those who don't.

 

[Lasse]

Not sure how the ad got in there and I can't find an edit button on here if there is can somebody point it out for me. Thanks.

To get an unlimeted edit option - you have to be a R2R supporter (some $ a year) But you always able to call in one of the mods to help you - I do this now - I call @Brew12 - can you fix Atols post #531 and take away the link?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[atoll]

To get an unlimeted edit option - you have to be a R2R supporter (some $ a year) But you always able to call in one of the mods to help you - I do this now - I call @Brew12 - can you fix Atols post #531 and take away the link?

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you my friend [emoji4]

 

[Lasse]

@Lasse What are your thoughts on using ozone? I'm a bit surprised that ozone wasn't mentioned until now.
We're using ozone now and then, but together with other types of filters, so I can't say much about their effectiveness.

And thank you @Brew12 for a great article and discussion!

There is one in my closet too :) I used ozone for 4 years in my old aquarium, reason - to take away yellow substances. It works perfect and I rise the dosage if I suspected trubble or when I introduce new fish. I got an outbreak of ich in that tank. Two clowns. I took up them, run my own variation of TT - BT (Bucket Transfer) Just a bucket of 10 or 20 litres, a circulation pump, dark place (putting down metabolism of the fish) and change bucket every day with a new - 50 % old water - 50 % new water. 7 days. During these 7 days I rise the ozone in the DT. Put back the clowns, no further ich for at least 3 years (at that time I crash the aquarium – reason - stupidity)


With my new build I decide to go the oxydator way. Always have want to test that in SW – have used it in freshwater for many years. The reason was because the use of ozone demands a lot of technique that can go wrong and of environmental reasons. With ozone – you can say – we have to much down her at the earth but to less up in the atmosphere. Ozone can be toxic to humans if you breathe it in – especially children. However, that’s can be solved with help of active carbon over the skimmer cup. It also eats skimmers – even if the label says – ozone resistant. The only thing you need to do with an oxydator is to check the fill level now and then.

But I´m not a fanatic guy – I have a zander 100 mg ozone in the closet – just in case of…..

@atoll The ORP is always going down in the first stage of peroxide dosage. IMO because of the double action of the decomposition of the molecule. First losing a O atom (reduction) – after that the free O atom oxidize something else (oxidation) – but this is only a theory from me. However – when we not get this when we use oxydators can indicate that most of the H2O2 already has been catalysed before it reaches the open water column. I will do a test and see whats happen with different concentrations and different amount of catalyst. Good to know if I need to rise the dose.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[sfin52]

Gr my post should read 2 x gyre 130s not 230s. I have builders fingers and bite my nails so they are more like a hammer face.

Your sense of humor cracks me up.

 

[MnFish1]

I think that’s a great idea.

I’m going to be running a modified version of the TTM method I came up with, essentially running my version of QT Option 3, non-toxic/mild meds prophylactic QT. TTM with transfers every 24-46 hours, some fresh water dips, and some medicated baths with either Ruby Reef Rally or Methylene Blue depending on the day.

OK - well - I just put 3 fish in my tank with the last 2 weeks - blu faced angel - from Petco, Harliquin tusk and Blue jaw trigger (LFS) - I put them in the sump for 2 days then in main tank. No problems so far