Very High Nitrates and phosphate

[PaulE61]

Hi I'm struggling to get my Nitrate and phosphate down to reasonable levels.
My Torches, Mushrooms seem to be doing ok and a couple of zoas are ok, while others have shrivelled up, but a monti cap that was doing well now isn't growing and is darkening, while I'm not having a mass dieoff some easy corals don't seem make it.
I've a Waterbox 60.2 running for 9 months, params were ok when first cycled, but for the last 5 months the Nitrate & Phos have climbed to the point Nitrate is averaging around 45ppm and Phos averaging 0.49ppm that despite dosing NoPox for the last 10 weeks starting at 0.8ml daily increasing to 2.8ml daily, I don't have a refugium, do a 10% WC fortnightly.
I've noticed the KH is steadily falling as well could this be causing the problem?

System volume approx 160litres
PH .............8.0 (never changes)
Calcium ....around 440-460
Magnesium .... 1150-1200
KH .................... 6.4 (steadily dropped from 8.3 over 10 weeks)
Phosphate ........ 0.43 last time (Use Hanna Checker)
Nitrate ............... 41.6 last Time (Use Hanna Checker)
Salinity ...............1.025
Temp ..................25.5C
Light ..... Kessil 360x 12hours

Livestock.......
3 chromis
2 Bangai Cardinals
2 Clownfish
1 Peacock Wrass
1 Diamond goby
1 Coral Beauty
1 Sailfin Tang (Soon to be re-homed)

Thanks Paul

 

[RockyMountainReefing]

What kind of rock did you use? Dead live rock? Also are u feeding dry or frozen food?

 

[stinkydavis]

NOPOX can lower alkalinity as it the acetic acid that is in it is being metabolized but will come back up after depletion . Have you tried running GFO? Know feeding schedule would be helpful as well

 

[Aquachristik]

Do you ramp your Kessils up and down? Or do you run them at 100% for the whole 12 hours?

 

[KrisReef]

Two 50% water changes with good salt to replace alkalinity and magnesium while removing 75% of your NO3 and PO4.

PO4 will likely creep up as it is in equilibrium with the rock and sand. I would siphon the deeper parts of the sand to clean them in the process of water changes.

Continual water changes are ok once you get the water quality in shape.

 

[CoralB]

Agree with krisreef

 

[jda]

Some corals are going to struggle and die at those levels. Some won't mind at all. This is a big thing that people don't get about higher residual no3 and po4 levels - there is nuance about what dies and what is OK including some of the same types of corals where some zoas might be OK and other melt, for example.

Do you want to work harder to be able to keep corals that are struggling? If you don't want to adapt, then you can just choose corals that don't mind at all.

If you leave that sand alone, it should eventually develop anoxic areas that will turn no3 into nitrogen gas. If you stir it up or clean it, then these do not develop.

Organic carbon dosing can help, but it looks like you need to up the dose. This mostly works with no3 and does not not lower po4 as much. For po4 you will need more skimming in the middle or to use GFO, Al Oxide or Lanthanum Chloride on the back end.

Do not cut back fish feeding to lower the back end. Just up the export of the back end. Fish feeding is still likely what is providing your corals with nitrogen and phosphorus even though nitrate and orthophosphate are higher.

Carbonate/alk will need supplemented. Are you doing any sort of alk and calcium supplement?

 

[PaulE61]

What kind of rock did you use? Dead live rock? Also are u feeding dry or frozen food?

Dry rock, frozen food

 

[PaulE61]

NOPOX can lower alkalinity as it the acetic acid that is in it is being metabolized but will come back up after depletion . Have you tried running GFO? Know feeding schedule would be helpful as well

I feed twice a day

 

[PaulE61]

Do you ramp your Kessils up and down? Or do you run them at 100% for the whole 12 hours?

I Ramp up the Kessil From 9am to 12 the 50% for 3 hours then slow ramp to 9pm, I only go to 50% as I have a 55 degree reflector fitted which concentrates the light a lot, I only go to 50% as, according to BRS the centre PAR with this is between 600 and 250 depending on mounting height, (Mines at 9") but the test didn't say what the intensity was, or I didn't catch that bit so I assumed it was 100%.

 

[shwareefer]

Are you running a protein skimmer? Nopox is essentially useless without a skimmer.

High nitrates deplete alkalinity (more specifically, the formation of nitrates). You definitely need to be targeting and maintaining an alk value.

Agree with @KrisReef except make it a series of small daily water changes to bring everything slowly back to target levels.

 

[PaulE61]

Some corals are going to struggle and die at those levels. Some won't mind at all. This is a big thing that people don't get about higher residual no3 and po4 levels - there is nuance about what dies and what is OK including some of the same types of corals where some zoas might be OK and other melt, for example.

Do you want to work harder to be able to keep corals that are struggling? If you don't want to adapt, then you can just choose corals that don't mind at all.

If you leave that sand alone, it should eventually develop anoxic areas that will turn no3 into nitrogen gas. If you stir it up or clean it, then these do not develop.

Organic carbon dosing can help, but it looks like you need to up the dose. This mostly works with no3 and does not not lower po4 as much. For po4 you will need more skimming in the middle or to use GFO, Al Oxide or Lanthanum Chloride on the back end.

Do not cut back fish feeding to lower the back end. Just up the export of the back end. Fish feeding is still likely what is providing your corals with nitrogen and phosphorus even though nitrate and orthophosphate are higher.

Carbonate/alk will need supplemented. Are you doing any sort of alk and calcium supplement?

Thanks for the info jda
I got the sand sifting Goby to do the sand sifting, he does a great job, even leaving some areas at the front bare bottom, is this not enough?
I'm considering stopping the NoPox dosing and starting dosing Red Sea KH/Alk B as I've read there is a relationship between low KH and High No3 & Po4, is this correct?.
Going to give GFO a try, I've noticed most successful reefer use it.

 

[PaulE61]

Are you running a protein skimmer? Nopox is essentially useless without a skimmer.

High nitrates deplete alkalinity (more specifically, the formation of nitrates). You definitely need to be targeting and maintaining an alk value.

Agree with @KrisReef except make it a series of small daily water changes to bring everything slowly back to target levels.

Thank You
I think I'll start weekly WC, Dosing RS KH/Alk B and use GFO.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

your tank is majorly overstocked for 40 gallons. The poor fishes need to eat and poop, for that amount of fish in that size tank, its not a mystery why you have high nutrients.

 

[PaulE61]

your tank is majorly overstocked for 40 gallons. The poor fishes need to eat and poop, for that amount of fish in that size tank, its not a mystery why you have high nutrients.

Probably is overstocked beyond the norm, but I recon part of this hobby is the difficulty in getting something to work, there are plenty of well stocked tanks online, maybe its more difficult with corals, but I think it can be done, I built a fish friendly rockwork, the fish love it, non are stressed there's no conflicts as there are nooks, caves and hide holes everywhere.
BTW I forgot about the Royal Gramma and Filefish

 

[forneyjohn19]

How heavily to stock a tank comes down to personal preference. Some people like having few fish, some people like having many. Personally, I like to have a heavily stocked tank because I enjoy my fish as much as the corals. As long as your fish have enough swimming room, territory, and aren’t fighting, they are fine.

But, a heavily stocked tank and heavy bio-load means you have to up your filtration. Here are some things that have worked for me that might help (I run a 25 gallon aio, 5 fish, last parameters were 0.2 nitrate and 0.4 phosphate). I am actually trying to find the right balance of below methods to have low nutrients, but not zero (last week I tested 0.0/0.0 for nitrate and phosphate):

Protein skimmer - I have a Bubble Magnus MiniQ nano internal protein skimmer. It was $65.00. This is the only protein skimmer I have owned, so I have nothing to compare it to (performance wise). What I do know is it pulls gunk out of my tank on a consistent basis, and it was cheap. Note, you might need a bigger skimmer.

GFO - I buy the BRS brand, put it in a little media bag, and put it in the rear filter compartments. Just let water run through, no forced water (like in a media reactor). This stuff will bottom out your phosphate fast. A little goes a long way. I change it out every week or two.

Refugium - I use the PhytoTank Macroalgae Chaeto Reactor with chaeto. I didn’t have room in my rear compartment, so this way I could add Refugium externally. If you have room in a rear chamber, just put the chaeto there. I actually added this to create a safe space for copepods to reproduce (for my mandarin). The nutrient control is a happy accident. You can control how long you run the lights to control nutrient uptake. You can also add a cheap plant grow light from Amazon (external, just point light at jar/chaeto) to increase uptake further. Note, this seems to control my nitrates better than phosphates.

I stopped using filter socks and just use disposable filter floss sheets for mechanical filtration. I would only change the sock weekly, vs this I have to change every 48 hours or it clogs up. You may not need to do this schedule forever, but being more vigilant about pulling waste out before it breaks down will significantly help reduce your nutrients.

Finally, be mindful of how much food you put in the tank. Ensure all fish have enough to eat, but specifically be sure that you aren’t overfeeding. Overfeeding is a common culprit for high nutrients.

You have to export more nutrients, and once things are more balanced water changes will be enough to keep the nutrients at an acceptable level. Research your options, add one, see how things change, then reevaluate. If needed, add another option. Repeat until things are under control.

You can do this. There are options that allow a heavily stocked tank but still keep nutrients low.

 

[biom]

Hi I'm struggling to get my Nitrate and phosphate down to reasonable levels.
My Torches, Mushrooms seem to be doing ok and a couple of zoas are ok, while others have shrivelled up, but a monti cap that was doing well now isn't growing and is darkening, while I'm not having a mass dieoff some easy corals don't seem make it.
I've a Waterbox 60.2 running for 9 months, params were ok when first cycled, but for the last 5 months the Nitrate & Phos have climbed to the point Nitrate is averaging around 45ppm and Phos averaging 0.49ppm that despite dosing NoPox for the last 10 weeks starting at 0.8ml daily increasing to 2.8ml daily, I don't have a refugium, do a 10% WC fortnightly.
I've noticed the KH is steadily falling as well could this be causing the problem?

System volume approx 160litres
PH .............8.0 (never changes)
Calcium ....around 440-460
Magnesium .... 1150-1200
KH .................... 6.4 (steadily dropped from 8.3 over 10 weeks)
Phosphate ........ 0.43 last time (Use Hanna Checker)
Nitrate ............... 41.6 last Time (Use Hanna Checker)
Salinity ...............1.025
Temp ..................25.5C
Light ..... Kessil 360x 12hours

Livestock.......
3 chromis
2 Bangai Cardinals
2 Clownfish
1 Peacock Wrass
1 Diamond goby
1 Coral Beauty
1 Sailfin Tang (Soon to be re-homed)

Thanks Paul

I like the scape it really provide lots of hiding places for fish and invertebrates.
I personally doubt if this levels of nutrients even if higher are something your corals could not handle. It could be light, I think running Kessil on this size tank on 50% is not enough to ensure good condition for a montipora which requires 200-300 PAR and higher. Why you are using 55 deg reflector? Using wider reflector and increasing intensity will be better IMO, this size tank can utilise the full power of the Kessil
Do you have a skimmer in this thank or other nutrient removal equipment?

 

[PaulE61]

How heavily to stock a tank comes down to personal preference. Some people like having few fish, some people like having many. Personally, I like to have a heavily stocked tank because I enjoy my fish as much as the corals. As long as your fish have enough swimming room, territory, and aren’t fighting, they are fine.

But, a heavily stocked tank and heavy bio-load means you have to up your filtration. Here are some things that have worked for me that might help (I run a 25 gallon aio, 5 fish, last parameters were 0.2 nitrate and 0.4 phosphate). I am actually trying to find the right balance of below methods to have low nutrients, but not zero (last week I tested 0.0/0.0 for nitrate and phosphate):

Protein skimmer - I have a Bubble Magnus MiniQ nano internal protein skimmer. It was $65.00. This is the only protein skimmer I have owned, so I have nothing to compare it to (performance wise). What I do know is it pulls gunk out of my tank on a consistent basis, and it was cheap. Note, you might need a bigger skimmer.

GFO - I buy the BRS brand, put it in a little media bag, and put it in the rear filter compartments. Just let water run through, no forced water (like in a media reactor). This stuff will bottom out your phosphate fast. A little goes a long way. I change it out every week or two.

Refugium - I use the PhytoTank Macroalgae Chaeto Reactor with chaeto. I didn’t have room in my rear compartment, so this way I could add Refugium externally. If you have room in a rear chamber, just put the chaeto there. I actually added this to create a safe space for copepods to reproduce (for my mandarin). The nutrient control is a happy accident. You can control how long you run the lights to control nutrient uptake. You can also add a cheap plant grow light from Amazon (external, just point light at jar/chaeto) to increase uptake further. Note, this seems to control my nitrates better than phosphates.

I stopped using filter socks and just use disposable filter floss sheets for mechanical filtration. I would only change the sock weekly, vs this I have to change every 48 hours or it clogs up. You may not need to do this schedule forever, but being more vigilant about pulling waste out before it breaks down will significantly help reduce your nutrients.

Finally, be mindful of how much food you put in the tank. Ensure all fish have enough to eat, but specifically be sure that you aren’t overfeeding. Overfeeding is a common culprit for high nutrients.

You have to export more nutrients, and once things are more balanced water changes will be enough to keep the nutrients at an acceptable level. Research your options, add one, see how things change, then reevaluate. If needed, add another option. Repeat until things are under control.

You can do this. There are options that allow a heavily stocked tank but still keep nutrients low.

Thank You
I'm aware I need to export nutrients instead of just dosing, started weekly wc, but I need to do a few large ones to bring them down initially, I feed fish about 10ml frozen food twice a day, is this too much?.

 

[PaulE61]

I like the scape it really provide lots of hiding places for fish and invertebrates.
I personally doubt if this levels of nutrients even if higher are something your corals could not handle. It could be light, I think running Kessil on this size tank on 50% is not enough to ensure good condition for a montipora which requires 200-300 PAR and higher. Why you are using 55 deg reflector? Using wider reflector and increasing intensity will be better IMO, this size tank can utilise the full power of the Kessil
Do you have a skimmer in this thank or other nutrient removal equipment?

thank you
I have the reflector because of the light spill, the tank in my lounge and the spillage is really annoying.
I will say I don't have a lot of algae, just hair algae here & there and not a lot or even rampant or even in the brightest areas, do you think I could max up the light to 80-90%?.
Thanks Again

 

[forneyjohn19]

Thank You
I'm aware I need to export nutrients instead of just dosing, started weekly wc, but I need to do a few large ones to bring them down initially, I feed fish about 10ml frozen food twice a day, is this too much?.

Is most of the food being eaten? Or is there a lot of uneaten food left over? Also, what specific frozen food are you feeding?